Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Dr. Michael Brown. He’s president and founder of Fire School of Ministry from Concord, North Carolina right outside of Charlotte area. Doctor Brown is a scholar with a PhD in near eastern languages and literatures from New York University. Recently we had a debate on It’s Supernatural television with a traditional Jewish rabbi, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. Who is perhaps arguably the most famous media rabbi in America, a traditional rabbi. The subject was “Who is Jesus?” Absolutely high adventure, but Mike there is something really gnawing at me. Lately I’ve been watching people like Larry King and others in the media interviewing prominent Christians that I respect immensely, and when the question is posed “What happens to someone that is a homosexual is involved in adultery, that’s involved in abortion, what does God think about these people, does God love these people?” It’s almost like these Christians all of a sudden become politically correct and they say a half-truth which is something like this “Oh God loves the homosexual,” but they leave out the fact only if that homosexual repents will they end up in heaven, and they leave the impression that “It’s okay to believe in whatever you want to” one man of God even said “Well I’m not the judge.” What’s going on? I mean it’s being water downed and these are some of God’s best servants.
Michael: Yeah I feel for the people when they’re in that situation my heart goes out to them, but I don’t excuse what’s being said and it grieves me deeply. Look here’s what happened, I’m not judging any individual that’s been on Larry King or another show and say I know what makes them tick. This much I know in general, we have watered down the gospel message Sid for so long. Look if we are afraid to tell the truth to the people that come into our building on a Sunday morning for a gospel meeting; if we have to water it down to keep them happy; if in our daily witness we are not clearly preaching repentance, if we just have a compromised toothless gospel that tries to make everybody happy and everybody is included, how in the world are we going to tell the truth to those that don’t believe? How in the world are we gonna now bare the reproach that comes from saying “There’s only one way.”
Sid: You know what bothers me even more, I mentioned Larry King so let’s stick with him for a minute because he interviews everyone, so therefore we don’t have to talk who these people are. I see that man saying “Show me Jesus is the Messiah” he doesn’t say this, but I see him saying “Give me a reason to believe.”
Michael: Look that fact is he’s heard the gospel through enough different people and I think what strikes him, and I saw him pretty hostile to some evangelicals. I was amazed to see instead of his mild mannered approach him being quite hostile and interrupting some evangelicals talking about righteousness issues in the society. We kind of saw another side of him, but I think what he was expecting from some of these spokesmen was just the integrity of their position.
Sid: I felt he was trying to trap the people and he knew how to trap them, and they played a political game which is horrific.
Michael: Look if you have Franklin Graham on there, no matter what question you ask him soon enough he’ll be telling you about the blood of Jesus and faith in Jesus, and everyone who needs Jesus. It’s just gonna happen just like his father would. I know one interview that Larry King asked someone point blank about Jesus being the only way and so on, and Muslims and what about them. He was surprised by the answer a Jews for Jesus friend of mine told me that you are previewed, you know I’ve been on different talk shows and sometimes they’ll do a preliminary interview with you, or even ask you point blank “If you’re asked this question how will you respond?” He seems surprised by an evangelical leader backing down. The brother subsequently apologized on his website and said “Jesus is the only way.” Hey when we’re in front of the world we have to say “I know this may sound scandalous to you, I know this may sound narrow minded to you, I know it may sound bigoted and hateful, but the fact is there is only one way. The good news is God has given the same opportunity for everyone. You all fall short no one’s good enough, no one’s getting in by their own righteousness so God says ‘I’m making a way for everyone to get in through My own love.’” When you hear it rightly it’s not a message of hate, rather it’s a message of love. The fact is it’s God’s way. We have so little fear of God in our society so much fear of man, so much of a man pleasing spirit. I tell you if God Himself was coming in power more and more in our services and we were getting a glimpse of His holiness and His greatness it would change our message, it would change out lifestyle and we’d get away from this man pleasing politically correct thing. Look I know we can be set up to seem like we’re hateful bigots. It happened on a show when I was on with Donahue, and with Shmuley together. Between these two gentlemen, I and another Baptist leader you know we’re portrayed as saying “Everyone’s going to burn in hell and rot forever and I’m gonna be happy if you do.” That’s almost the way they were trying to portray us. You don’t want to be backed in that corner, but when Donahue asked me “Is Ghandi good enough to get in?” I said “Ghandi is not good enough, you’re not good enough, I’m not good enough, we all need mercy. If we refuse God’s mercy we don’t get in.” Look when people say “So Mahatma Gandhi is not good enough to get in.” What if I change my answer and say “Okay he’s good enough what about you?” [Laughing]
Sid: [Laughing]
Michael: One person in the entire world who is good enough. Look the fact is, even that question gives the answer itself. If you have to point to someone like that the supposed unbelievable saint maybe he was an amazing man. If he’s good enough where does it leave the rest of us? God says “Nobody is good enough, everybody needs mercy, but I’m giving you mercy. My son is dying for what you did.” How is that a message of hate?
Sid: You know Mike going back to the debate you had with Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, a traditional Jewish rabbi. Tell me a bit about Isaiah 9:6. Why is that so important?
Michael: One of the biggest arguments that would be raised, and Shmuley raised it rightly so, and the debate is, God is not a man, Numbers 23, 1 Samuel 15. God is not a man Deuteronomy the 4th chapter when He spoke on Sinai there was no form, there is nothing you saw, therefore don’t make a form of a man or anything else and worship it. Therefore if you say Jesus is God you’re an idol worshiper. So we have to hit that head on and first say “When we say Jesus is God” we are speaking of God’s complex unity, His triunity. We are not saying God stepped down from His throne, ceased being God in heaven, and walked around on the earth like some of the ancient myths. We’re saying that the eternal God His Son clothed Himself in human flesh and walked among us. There’s quite a difference, if we make a statue of Jesus and bow down to it and say “That is God” then we’re worshiping the form. That we do not do, we worship Him as God, not in a physical form like a statue. We don’t worship the form, but there are verses in the Hebrew Bible that point to either God appearing among men, like Genesis 18th chapter which is the plainest clearest reading that Yahweh Himself appears with 2 angels and communes with Abraham. There are other verses like in Psalm the 40th chapter where it addresses the Messianic king and says “To your throne oh God, or oh Divine One is forever and ever.” Then in Isaiah the 9th chapter the 6th verse, verse 5 in the Hebrew Bible, where the son of David is called “Peleh yo-aitz el gee-bor aviad sar-shalom” which is rightly translated as “Wonderful Counselor Father forever, Mighty God Prince of Peace.” In other words, the Messianic King bears a title Might God. You say how can that possibly be? It’s only explained through the incarnation, it’s only explained through saying “God actually came among us while remaining eternal God in heaven.” Is it a mystery? Of course. Is it contrary to scripture? Absolutely not, in fact it explains the scripture.
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth
Tags: its supernatural, Sid Roth