Sid: My guest is red hot for Jesus his name Kris Vallotoon. He’s the Senior Associate Pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California. And Kris at age 3 you had a real traumatic thing happen to you what was that?
Kris: Yeah my father drowned when I was 3 years old.
Sid: And what affect did it have on you?
Kris: Well from the time I was 3 until the time I was 5 I didn’t speak at all.
Sid: Did you speak at 3?
Kris: Yes I did I started talking when I was 3 years old but I completely shut down.
Sid: What did your mother do about it?
Kris: My Mom took me to a physiatrist and tried to get me to talk and you know that whole time in my life was just a whole traumatic time and my mom remarried right after that when I was 8 years old my Mom remarried the guy beat us. One time he beat me until blood ran down my leg. We just had a real traumatic time my stepfather…
Sid: It sounds like someone wanted to make sure that you would not survive this life.
Kris: (Laughing) I mean that’s a good way to put it Sid I think that’s a good way to put it.
Sid: How did you survive with a stepfather like that and your father dying through drowning at age 3, how did you survive?
Kris: Well you know a really incredible thing happened my mom finally divorced left my stepfather and there was a lot of trauma in our home at that time. My mom would sleep on the couch in the front room with a shotgun because we had a prowler trying to get into our house for almost a year. We had the cops out almost every night.
Sid: Mishpochah you think you’ve got a problem listen to Chris wow go ahead.
Kris: Yeah my mom broke out in a rash from the top of her head to the bottom of her feet she was just one big rash. And one night I was 15 years old it was a summer night and it was about 2:00 in the morning and I wasn’t raised as a Christian I wasn’t raised in any kind of religious background and I said out loud “If there’s a God if You heal my mother I will serve you the rest of my life. And a voice came to me and said “My name is Jesus Christ and you have what you requested.” The very next morning my mom was completely well the rash was completely gone.
Sid: Did you follow through with that oath?
Kris: Well let me tell you the rest of the story they caught the prowler that week. A week later I’m laying in bed and a voice comes to me. The only other time I ever heard a voice in my life and He said “My name is Jesus Christ” you said if I healed your mother you’d serve me.” From that day on I began to search for God and I knew a couple of things now. I knew he cared about me, I knew He had power, and I knew His name is Jesus Christ. I just started going to different churches and I would go to a church and I would sit there and “The voice that spoke to me isn’t in this place?” Sp as a young man I was searching for God from the time from the earliest times that I can remember.
Sid: Did you find a church that you said “Hey God’s in this place?
Kris: You know I finally did in the charismatic movement the Jesus movement this girl she brought me to church to this little tiny church and it was just full of youth and they were excited about God. And I thought “Wow this is incredible!” And before the guy even gave the altar call I was out front and I received the Lord and I came home and my mom said “You don’t know what you’re doing you don’t know what you did.”And she kind of talked me out of salvation but the Lord was already at work in my life. I went to work at this warehouse and this old man believe me he probably wasn’t that old Sid but he looked old to me do you know what I mean.
Sid: Everything is relative Kris.
Kris: To a teen everybody is old. He began to talk to me about the Bible and he said “Would you like to read the Bible with me? And I said “Yeah that would be great but I don’t read very well I read on a 3rd grade level when I graduated from high school. So he said “Well I’ll read it to you and he read me the book of John every day at lunchtime He would read the Bible to me. When we finished the book of John he said “Would you like to redo what the Bible said and receive Jesus?” And so I said “Yeah.” And he led me in the sinners prayer and not a thing happened and nothing happening.
Sid: And so did you think it didn’t take?
Kris: I was like I was so disappointed that you know the God who spoke to me in a voice at 3 years earlier came into my life and I didn’t feel a thing. And I was like “Wow I had such a dramatic experience in my bedroom that I was expecting you know lightning.” You know what I’m saying?
Sid: I know exactly I had the same thing happened to me and I’m like “Wow!” But I went home that day and I was living out on my own and I got home and I started having an incredible desire to read the Bible which I never had before. I started reading the Bible that night and I said “I only read on the 3rd grade level.” So it would take me an hour to read a chapter. I started reading about 11:00 at night and at 3:00 in the morning I fell asleep reading my Bible. And after about 3 or 4 days I realized the Lord had changed my heart and I didn’t even know it. I had a roommate and I didn’t want to know that I found the Lord I’d wait for him to go to bed I’d lock myself in my closet put a towel underneath the door so he couldn’t see the light and I’d read all night in there.
Sid: Why didn’t you want him to know?
Kris: Because I didn’t have…I didn’t have the boldness to tell him what happened to me and we had been childhood friends and I think I was a little bit embarrassed about being a Christian. And so it took me about 4 or 5 months to tell him what happened to me.
Sid: And I understand you married your…a woman that you knew most your life tell me about that.
Kris: It was really incredible I met my wife when she was 12 years old I met her at a lake in fact the friend that I was living with took me there with his family. And I met her when she was 12 I got engaged when she was 13 years old and I married her at 17. And we both found the Lord a year before we got married which was really exciting thing for us.
Sid: But then it’s kind of hard to believe here you are strong experience with the Lord born again Spirit filled happily married relatively successful in business your managing 13 people and all of a sudden at age 22 what happened?
Kris: Well at age 22 one night I came home from work and yeah I was managing a repair shop and I came home from work and I took a bath and it was late at night probably 9:00 at night and when I went to get out of the bathtub I started shaking and I mean I shook so bad…
Sid: Was it a catalyst that started this?
Kris: Yes exactly.
Sid: What was it?
Kris: I had a thought and this sounds crazy Sid but I had this thought as I was in the bath tub and this thought was “I’m going to die.” And I don’t mean it was a passing though I don’t know how to express this but it was it became an obsession. I thought “I’m going to die.”
Sid: Had you most of your life had a fear of death?
Kris: Never it happened all of a sudden it happened suddenly. One minute…it’s kind of strange one minute I was fine and the next minute I was shaking like a leaf.
Sid: When you say shaking you’re not figure of speech you’re really shaking.
Kris: I shook so bad Sid I couldn’t get a glass of water to my face without using 2 hands. And the shaking lasted 3½ years.
Sid: Now I must ask you did you have a problem with drugs, with alcohol?
Kris: Sid I’ve never taken a drug in my life beside a prescription drug and I took a sip off of my grandfather’s beer when I was about 10 years old that’s about the only alcohol I’ve ever had in my life. I’ve never touched alcohol or drugs.
Sid: You shook for 3½ years? Did you go to a psychiatrist?
Kris: My wife that night kind of a funny story I couldn’t get out of the tub by myself so she came over and she helped me she was already 7 months pregnant. She helped me out of the tub?
Sid: Was this your first child?
Kris: My first child.
Kris: She called her family doctor who was also a friend, I worked on his vehicles, at the middle of the night. “Something’s wrong with my husband and he’s shaking all over.” she had him check my heart rate my heart rate was way up and I was sweating just profusely and he said “Oh he’s having an anxiety attack and go get him some alcohol go get him some alcohol to calm him down.” Well of course I’d never drank before so she went out and the only thing she could find open was the place to find was a place to buy some wine. And she bought a half a gallon of wine Sid I drank the whole thing I drank the whole half gallon of wine and it didn’t do anything but make me sick.
Sid: So now you’re shaking and sick.
Kris: Oh man I’m shaking like a leaf I’m sick as a dog and it didn’t do anything to help my nervous system. The next day I went to the doctor he gave me some tranquilizers. I took l tranquilizer …and I actually took them for 2 days and all it did was depress me I was still shaking.
Sid: So now you’re sick, shaking and depressed it doesn’t seem to be getting better.
Kris: It is not getting better (laughing). At night time I would shiver like an Irish Setter I would shiver all the time I would shiver not from cold my nerves were just shot. I’d get in bed at night and I would sweat so bad the sweat would cover my wife’s side of the bed and she would have to get me up 2 or 3 times a night and change the sheet because I would wet the bed sweat.
Sid: Were you able to sleep much?
Kris: No I’d sleep an hour 2 hours a night.
Sid: How did…was that 3½ years or was that a short while?
Kris: Three and half years. We were living in…we were living in San Jose, California which is a major city. I had a really high pressure job, I wasn’t eating right and I thought the year before the year before we got married we went to a little town called Weaverville, California a friend of ours lived there and it was a town with no stop lights, it was a place where the birds fly slow you know. And so when this happened to me I thought “You know what I’ve got to get out of the city because my problem is all of the stress of the city.” So we took up stakes and we sold our house I quit my job and we moved to the city…this all happened in 2 weeks. We sold our house 3 times the first day we put it up for sale, I quit my job, we moved to Weaverville, California and when I moved to a slower place the only thing that happened was it accented how fast I was going inside.
Sid: Okay hold that thought we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: It seems as though finances cripple the individual. There are people that are making more money today than they’ve ever made in their life and they still aren’t able to put savings aside. They’re still not able to give to the ministries they want to give to. It seems as though the more they make the more they spend and that’s the way it is, but that’s not the way God intended it. I have on the telephone my friend Craig Hill. He is the founder of Family Foundations International it’s a seminar teaching ministry on the family based in Littleton, Colorado. Craig I’ve just described most Christians in America how can they get out of this “No matter how much I make I spend it all?”
Sid: That would even be good for some of the people. “I spend more.”
Craig: Yep that’s right. I think one of the key things that we haven’t considered Sid in this society is a very simple question that most people have never answered. It’s a question that I believe needs to be answered in writing and most Christians have never sat down and even thought about it and the question would simply be this, how much is enough? How much is enough? So when people are considering their own consumption they need to answer before the Lord “How much is enough for my own consumption?” What that does, and I talk about that often times as a circle. My friend Earl Pitts gave me this picture years ago of our own consumption is like a circle and most people have an open circle. What they means is they’ve never answered that question how much is enough? Now if you think about it here God is with infinite resource and when you look at most ministries and things that are being in the kingdom of God they have a lack of resource. Now if God has infinite resource and ministries have lack of resource, what’s the disconnection? Does God not want ministries to prosper? Does He not want people with vision to be able to accomplish that vision in the kingdom? Of course that’s not the case. The disconnection is that infinite financial resource that God has access to has flow through us, has to flow through people to get into ministry. Why doesn’t it get much into ministry? I think the reason is people have very sticky pipelines. Most of what God puts through the pipeline, us namely, gets stuck in the pipeline because of the spirit of mammon’s influence on people’s minds because of the fear that produces that “I’m not going to be taken care of. I don’t have enough.” So as a result of that what people do is they keep anything they get, then when increase comes it usually just goes to increase their circle. It’s amazing when increase of money comes what enters into people’s minds. I mean the classic example Biblically was Ananias and Sapphira. That when they turned the property they had into money the next thing you know they’re not fulfilling the commitments they made to the Lord but they certainly get other ideas of what to do with that money because again they had not closed that circle. They had not ever answered that question in writing, how much is enough?
Sid: How do you figure out how much is enough?
Craig: Yeah I think what has to happen… well the first thing that has to happen is people need to have an understanding that there even supposed to do that they need to answer that question. Then that is answered on paper through what is commonly known as a budget sitting down together and going through some very simple types of… going through basic line items of a budget.
Sid: How can someone do that that has never done it before?
Craig: Yeah. I think one of the best ways, I mean that was in the seminar we that we do on finances we put together a 10 week follow-up group just for that purpose because we find that many people don’t know how. There are many good courses and books that people can get ahold of but the critical thing is they sit down and they begin to establish:
How much for clothing?
How much for food?
How much for housing?
Sid: Well today with computers even for people that are pretty computer illiterate you can buy software that will do this for you.
Craig: It’ll figure it out for you and all you do is plug in numbers the categories are already there. You know one of the funny things we’ve found is as husbands and wives have sat down to do this sometimes it results in some of the hugest conflicts they’ve had. It really again… there’s a spiritual aspect to it, there’s a need to pray through these things to find out… again the issue is not what does the husband think should be spent, what does the wife think should be spent, but what does God think? That’s the issue. Lord what are we supposed to be, what should our circle include? I think the critical thing is it’s not a matter of judging others of what somebody else thinks, you know, or what somebody else includes in their circle. It really isn’t an issue of whether your circle should be 50,000/year, 100,000/year, 20,000/year, the issue is, what can you stand before Jesus look Him in the eyes and say “Lord to the best of our knowledge we have closed our circle with what we believe You’ve told us is supposed to be in that circle.” Now once that happens…
Sid: Now wait a second, what if you in your circle, or your budget if you will, and you’ve prayed and it’s higher than your income?
Craig: Yeah that’s a good question. Now you know if you’ve got a closed circle number let’s just pick numbers for example. Let’s say you’ve got a closed circle number that says you need $3000/month, and you’re only making $2,600/month you have a $400 gap. Now you know what to pray for, now you know what to bring…
Sid: So you can be specific in prayer.
Craig: Exactly. Whereas… and I really do perceive this is the case. It’s like God in a sense is like a manager of a multi-trillion dollar trust fund. Imagine if a multi-trillion dollar fund came to town and it became known that they were willing to fund anyone that would like to come and make application. Suppose you went down to make application and they said “Well how much do you need?” and you said “Well I don’t know a little more than I have.” They say “Well how much more?” “Well I don’t know exactly some more.” “Well what are you going to use it for?” “Well to pay my bills?” “Well what bills exactly?” In other words, if you couldn’t be specific what trust fund manager in his right mind would release any money to you if you can’t even account for the money that you have now who in their right mind would release more to you. Or what I’ve said to many people “Flip it the other and suppose that you were the trust fund manager and it was your job to dispense money responsibly for the owner of the trust fund, would you give yourself any? Would you invest in you?” And a lot of people (chuckling) you know their eyes go to the ground about that time, you know the obvious point is if you wouldn’t even invest in you because you don’t have any budget, you don’t have any track record, you don’t have any way of managing what you have now who in their right mind would give you more.
Sid: Okay you do your budget you find out your $400/month short, you pray to God that that $400 will come in. It now comes in now what?
Craig: Now your closed circle is met. Now you find yourself in a wonderful position because now you get to become what I call a “Financial Eunuch.” That sounds like a strange term but eunuchs were those that were… that served in harem of the king. Their goal was to prepare the king’s wives for him. They didn’t touch those wives for themselves. What would happen if one of those men who worked around the king’s harem touched one of those women for himself? They’d be executed. So in order to insure that nobody would they only had eunuchs working around those women. So what is a financial eunuch? That’s somebody who has sparrow faith in his heart, again somebody that believes “My needs are met because my Father in heaven loves me. My circle is closed, my closed circle budget is met, and now God I’m believing you for an extra $2000/month that I can simply be an administrator over, that I can be a channel of to channel into Your kingdom.”
Sid: What most people would say is “I want an extra $2000/month of which God I’ll be glad to give you 10%.”
Sid: $200, that’s not what you’re saying?
Craig: No we’re talking about now saying “God I want to manage a cash flow that’s a 100% Yours it all goes to You.” You know my father had an incredible experience like this some years ago Sid where he got that revelation and he said “God that’s exactly what I want to do. I want to be a manager of Your business. I want to be a manager of cash flow if it really is true that you have infinite resource, then I want to be a channel through whom some of that resource could flow. I want to be financial eunuch so to speak where I don’t touch it for myself I just want it to pass through to you.” And he had an incredible experience in that when he made that commitment, and he made that commitment legally by conveying some assets at the time that were worthless but he thought would have great potential value into some trusts that were legally owned by Jesus Christ and managed by trustees on his behalf for the benefit of ministries. The day he legally signed those papers those assets began to multiply…
Craig: …and within the next 2 years they literally multiplied a thousand times, not a thousand percent a thousand times the value…
Sid: Now now let’s step back. Is it wrong or ungodly if you’ve prayed and you feel that God wants you to put in that circle you’re forming of your expenses things such as vacations, maybe even a second home, or is that a greedy thing and we shouldn’t do it?
Craig: Not at all and I think vacations is something that should be in everybody’s budget. People that have never closed the circle that tend to get deeper and deeper in debt could never enjoy a vacation anyway because every time they go out on a vacation they feel guilty they shouldn’t be spending the money and they need a vacation from their vacation when they get back (laughing). But I believe the key to that Sid is being able to look the Lord in the eyes and to be able to stand before Him with a pure heart and say “Lord we prayed about this and we really believe that this is what You’ve told us we’re supposed to have in our circle for the purpose of glorifying You and expanding Your kingdom.” If a person can stand before Jesus with a clear conscience and say that I don’t think there’s a problem.
Sid: Craig there is so much more in this teaching. I mean you show people how to supernaturally get out of debt, how to supernaturally become stewards of God’s fortunes. I mean this is such… and to have the motivation right and understand money.
Sid: My guest on the telephone is Craig Hill. He’s the founder of Family Foundations International they teach seminars on the family based in Littleton, Colorado. I got ahold recently of his 7 audio cassette series called “God’s Principles of Finances.” There is a need for a course correction in the understanding of money, the understanding of giving, the understanding of the spirits behind this in this whole arena and that’s what this series of cassettes does. Now Craig Hill I want to tell you a real life situation and ask you how you would handle it.
Sid: I’ve got a friend that was a very successful businessman and he was a giver; he tithed religiously if you will to his local church. Due to reasons, and I don’t want to judge but let’s say maybe he didn’t use the best business principles.
Craig: Hmm hm.
Sid: He went bankrupt. His young children saw this and when they got into a position where they were earning good money they decided there’s nothing to this tithing, “It didn’t work for mom or dad, I’m not going to tithe.” What would you say now to the children who are now adults?
Craig: You know what I believe Sid is that tithing is one of those basic principles of life. It’s a principle like gravity, it’s a principle like… there would be many of them like honor your father and mother. Now people can look and see certain things that don’t work in other people’s lives for all kinds of reasons and decide that they don’t have to obey that. The problem is there are consequences to that and that damage is done. So a lot of times people are looking at a circumstance don’t understand all the why’s of how something occurred, what happened there, but I really believe tithing is a principle like gravity. Somebody could just say “Well I don’t believe that. I don’t need to do that.” All we can say to them in the example of gravity is “Well fine go ahead we’ll just watch your life and see how that works out for you. I mean if you want to step off of tall buildings and cliffs and you do that repetitively over a period of time and works okay for you we’ll maybe we’ll change our thinking on that.” (Chuckling) But of course we know that’s going to be the case because gravity just a universal principle, and tithing is a principle like that as well. I think what… the mistake a lot of people make is they think that the purpose of tithing is to fund the church or because God needs money. I really don’t believe that, I believe the purpose of the tithe is for the tither, for the giver far more than it is for the church or obviously it’s not for God, God doesn’t need people’s money, God doesn’t need your money or your tithe He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. So the issue is not God needing money, I don’t believe it’s even the church needing money. I believe that the issue is that the tithe is something that begins to help establish sparrow faith in a person’s heart. And we were talking yesterday about sparrow faith being that faith in the depth of my heart that my father in heaven loves and He’s going to provide for me. The tithe is the practical action step that I can begin to take that manifests that, or demonstrates that. What I’ve found in terms of the tithe it’s hard for everyone. It doesn’t matter if it’s 10% of a $1000, $10,000, or a million dollars it’s still hard for anybody to manage that particular portion. So I imagine what these children need to understand is God’s word is true whether you see particular circumstances in someone’s life or not. I’ve found out a lot of times again when people have a wrong spirit, or a wrong attitude in their heart and they try to do the principles of God they are not accomplishing the thing that that principle was designed to accomplish. Then they become angry at God, angry at the people that taught them that. I’ve run into numerous people as I’m sure you have too that have said “I’ve tried that tithing and it didn’t work.” Well I don’t know what it was that they were intent on accomplishing through it (chuckling) what it was they were trying to do what they thought was supposed to work, but the key to it is the tithe is something that generates faith in a person’s heart toward God as a source, as a provider. As they begin to do that on a regular basis I think it begins to qualify them to for God to flow large amounts of funds through their hands into the kingdom of God.
Sid: What do you see for this coming year? Do you see… I mean I personally see some real serious economic times for the United States…
Sid: …but if people follow principles, do you really believe God’s going to supernaturally provide?
Craig: I really do and I’ve seen it… I mean we’ve certainly seen it through scripture. All through scripture many times when there are very difficult economic situations in a location. Here are specific people that are hearing from the Spirit of God, walking in God’s principles, and they’re seeing provision coming to them when all around people are perishing. I believe we’re going to see that same thing in the future in economic crisis that are bound to come to the world and bound to come to our nation. People get full of fear “Oh we’ve got to do this, oh we’ve got to do that!” Again often times they are not recognizing… know God has supernatural provision for those who walk in His principles. One of the things that I’ve seen regarding the tithe Sid, and this is in that tape series and I don’t know we’ll have time to really get through it all today. But I just wanted to touch on Leviticus 27 verse 30 where it says “All the tithe of the land whether the seed of the land or the fruit of the tree is the Lord’s it is holy to the Lord.” I just saw something in that just recently the first thing was I had always thought that the tithe was mine. What I mean by that is, I had always perceived the tithe was me taking 10% of my income and giving it to God, but I got a revelation just recently when I read that that it says “The tithe is the Lord’s.” Well if it’s the Lord’s then it’s not mine it’s the Lord’s. The second thing that I saw is it says “It’s holy to the Lord.” I think we do a funny thing with that word holy because what it really means is not a particular set of behavior standards but it means dedicated. For example if you had 5 telephone going into your office and one of them was dedicated to the Fax machine you could say regarding that phone line that line is holy unto the Fax machine; just simply means it’s dedicated, set aside. If you take that then into the financial realm where it says here about the tithe “It’s holy unto the Lord,” and holiness always has to have an object except pertaining to God himself. The only One in the universe that’s holy unto Himself, but if it means dedicated then everything else is dedicated TO something, in this case “The tithe is holy unto the Lord.” If you take that into the financial realm it would be for example if you went to purchase a house. You put a $5000 deposit down on that house that deposit probably would go into an escrow account and let’s say closing was going to be in 2 months. Well as that money was sitting in the escrow account, suppose the escrow agent, the attorney that was looking after that was a little short in his own personal finances that month. So he dipped into 1 or 2 thousand dollars of that with full intent of putting that back into the account before the house closing came. What do they do with people like that?
Sid: They put them in prison.
Craig: They put them in prison. Why? I mean he wasn’t stealing it he planned to put it back…
Sid: That was not his money.
Craig: That’s the issue. The issue was it wasn’t his money, and secondly what kind of money was it?
Craig: It’s holy, it’s dedicated. What’s it dedicated to? It’s dedicated unto the house closing. It’s holy unto the person who put up the deposit. It doesn’t belong to the attorney or the escrow agent. Again another picture example of that would be if you were a stockbroker and you manage an account on several other people’s behalf’. What would happen if you took their money and co-mingled it with your own personal account and did business with it on that basis?
Sid: You’d have a prison ministry (laughing).
Craig: Again you get to go to prison according to the laws of the land. Why? Because the government is smart enough to recognize that if you comingle that which is holy with that which is profane, or that which is common would be the opposite of holy that you’re not going to be able to recognize the difference. So the government passes laws that says “If you’re going to manage money on behalf of others you must keep it separate and you must keep it dedicated unto that person and unto the purpose for which you’re managing it.” So what I saw in this scripture that’s exactly the picture that God is giving us here regarding the tithe and I believe there’s a purpose. There’s an end purpose to it. He’s saying, and I’ve said this to many people “How would you like to be a manager of funds on God’s behalf,” remember now your needs are met because your Father in heaven loves you, “How would you like to simply manage a 10 or 20 thousand dollar a month of cash flow that’s not for meeting your needs but you’re simply the administrator or a manager of funds on God’s behalf that it’ll be put into the kingdom of God that it’ll pass through you into ministry.” Everybody says “Oh yes I’d love to do that I’d like to be that kind of a manager.” Then we start talking about this aspect of the tithe. Well what is it? It’s just a very first entry level baby step that God offers every single to manage something that is not there’s. To manage an account which is the Lord’s, which is what the scripture says it’s not yours, the Lord’s and it’s dedicated to a specific purpose it’s holy unto the Lord.
Sid: You know I like what you say in your teaching about actually setting up 2 checking accounts.
Craig: Yes! That is the best way to keep that holy. You know I didn’t have this revelation when I first got married but that is exactly what my wife and I did. The moment we got married we setup a joint checking and the second account we setup was a tithe account. Anytime we received any money we simply took 10% of it put it into that tithe account. What that did for us is that kept that money holy, or dedicated when it came time to give we didn’t have to pull it out of our regular checking account. When we looked at the balance in our checking account we never saw the Lord’s tithe in there it was segregated and separated. I really recommend that to anybody particularly anybody that’s struggled in that area. Again what we’re talking about Sid is we’re talking about a principle that releases the supernatural so that when somebody does this that… what they’re actually doing is they saying to heaven and hell and earth “My trust is in the Lord Jesus Christ my trust is not in money” because that spirit of mammon will immediately say “If you do this if you allocate 10% and manage it as the Lord’s account you’re going to perish. You can’t pay your bills now how could you pay them if you did that?” Of course that thinking does not include God it doesn’t include the supernatural. God is a God of the supernatural. And there will be testimony after testimony after testimony of people who have discovered that.
Sid: There are innuendos in college and in high school, calculated plans to talk people out of their faith and it’s called the theory of evolution and every Bible believer knows that it’s not true because as a Bible believer we believe in creationism. But isn’t it good to get scientific answers to these objections rather than saying “Well I just believe it.” I mean haven’t you wrestled with people saying how old the earth is and how old the Bible says it is, and how there’s a conflict right there, and people have come up with various theories? Well on yesterday’s broadcast I was interviewing Dr. Carl Baugh who is founder and director of Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose, Texas, and he just blew those arguments out of the water. Carl today I have to ask you this question, there’s so much about cloning and DNA and we’re getting so close to creating human life, what would your response be?
Carl: Alll…right now that’s a very interesting topic. You probably don’t know, perhaps you do we’ll talk about it later that I’m the scientific research director of the world’s first hypobaric biosphere dealing with the living systems in a context like we had originally from a Jewish, Hebrew-Jewish, Christian, Judeo context Genesis and Exodus. We’re actually simulating those conditions and examining living systems and what would occur there. There is a lot of popular talk about creating life in a test tube, but when you get to the individuals involved in the projects they admit readily that they are not creating life at all. What they’re taking is existing life form and using what’s termed genetic recumbenance of recombining portions, strands of DNA from one living system with the strands of DNA from another system and since it’s already living to begin with it is sometimes temporarily a viable entity lives for a period of time, bizarre life forms but they’re not creating life. The law of biogenesis states very clearly that only life begets life. Now we can toy with life, we think we can improve life but we really can’t. Every living system has a genetic potential within a certain realm and while that genetic potential can be shuffled on the surface, and we call that microevolution. No problem with microevolution that’s variation within genetic boundary, but it’s macroevolution where the theory is that somehow mutational change environmental adaptation natural selection can give you an increased amount of information to lead to a life form. That really isn’t true, you can only get living systems out of living systems. So the cloning which is really a duplicate copy, again begins with a living system, but then they will introduce new genes into a living system and call it a new life form. Well it’s really a combination of 2 life forms and normally it has a very limited viability.
Sid: Let me change the subject just for a second, there are people that say they are Bible believers and they’re scientists and they there are certain aspects of the theory of evolution. They are scientific and they’re not going to throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater they’re going to keep it. Are there aspects of the theory of evolution that are scientific?
Carl: There are aspects if we are talking microevolution. That is change within genetic information, that’s microevolution, but it’s the theory that over periods of time mutational change, or various small catastrophes, alter the genes so that you get another life form that is a higher organism, that is totally unscientific. Many good Bible believing professional Christians have been led to believe that the earth is old so that there have been changes of one species, or one kind. In the Hebrew you would call that, or we would call that the beremum, the kinds, one kind leading to another, but that has never been demonstrated in the laboratory. Plus in the book I talk about life origins and the fact that those life origins have never been demonstrated to have occurred naturally in fact can’t. Like on page 16 I quote Professor Leslie Orgell stating:
It is extremely improbable that proteins and nucleic acids, both of which are structurally complex, arose spontaneously in the same place at the same time. Yet it also seems impossible to have one without the other. And so, at first glance, one might have to conclude that life could never, in fact, have originated by chemical means.
And he’s right and good Bible believing Christians often do not know the facts. You see one field trust another life. The geologist at the university… you go to the geologist and you say “Show me evolution.” He’d say “Well I can’t show it to you go to the biologist we trust him he has the information.” You go to the biologist and say “I need information proving evolution.” He says “Well I can’t give it to you go to the paleontologist he’ll give it to you.” You go to the paleontologist and he says “Well we interpret the fossils but we really can’t prove evolution you’re going to have to go the geologist.” So it’s circuitous route…
Sid: It’s called “Passing the buck” (laughing).
Carl: Passing the buck is exactly right (laughing).
Sid: Dr. Baugh but what about, I mean these are questions that I have pondered. I believe the Bible but I’ve pondered these things but what about from time to time you open up the newspaper and you hear about the missing link. Is there any truth to these things? I mean these are real scientists that are involved in studying these missing links the apes that go back to the humans.
Carl: I have an entire chapter dealing with progression of life forms in the book dealing with that very subject. Anthropologist, physical anthropologist, or paleoanthropologist, those who deal with the distant ancient past history of mankind as they determine like to bring up the various missing links, but amazingly every single specimen disproves the original theory so that we finally come to the conclusion… and in the book I verify this by leading professors. We finally come to the conclusion that on one hand we have 8 sometimes bizarre lower primates, on the other hand we have homosapien man, or Homo habilis, or homo erectus, we have those interpreted in form or another, but when the final data come in you only have two chance. Sometimes you’ll have a human skull that’s slightly bizarre because of various conditions and inbreeding which can produce Neanderthal types in a matter of just 3 generations. Did you know that Sid?
Sid: No, never.
Carl: You can get Neanderthal types, we have that documented in the literature, in just 3 generations. So we isolate a culture of people and have inbreeding or limited genetic viability then you get bizarre characteristics. Sometimes you’ll find in a fossil or a grave burial site various individuals that look a little bizarre but they are not apes. Now let’s get to the technical data to prove that an ape can never become a man. One of the scholars I quote in the book, Dr. Barney Maddox, a geneticist, shows that the difference between the lower primates, or chimpanzees, or apes we would say in general, the genetic difference between an ape and a man is only 1.6%. Now at first that appears to be very alarming. Here you have an ape 98.4% genetically identical or similar to a human being. So wouldn’t it be very easy to bridge that gap? Not at all! First of all that 98.4% of genetic information has to do with the fact that he has a spinal column, has appendages, we have a spinal column we have appendages. He has a skull, he has a braincase, he has a brain, he has eyes and nose and mouth, he has hair, he has legs, actually an ape really has 4 arms in a very specific sense. But all of those are 4 appendages and all of that requires genetic information so that is 98.4% identical to us because we have arms, we have legs, we have hands, we have feet, an ape has 4 hands actually but we call those again 4 appendages. We have a skull, we have a braincase, we have a cerebrum all these things together comprise genetic information, but it’s the 1.6% difference that is extremely important. At first glance it would appear that bridging that 1.6% gap would be easy but it is absolutely impossible. I mention Dr. Barney Maddox a specialist in genetics and he showed that 1.6% difference represents 48 million nucleotide differences. Any accumulation of 3 these in succession, or adjacent to each other, totally destroys the host organism. So Sid what we find in actual scientific research is, it is impossible to bridge the gap from ape to man. Each is species specific and genetic specific. In fact I quote in the book on page 76 “An admission by Scientific American that the study of human origins,” that’s where we’re talking about a fossil man “seems to be a field in which every discovery raises debate to a more sophisticated level of uncertainty.” And in the book on page 77, I think we may want to discuss those at a later date. We talk about each of these Piltdown man, Nebraska man which turned out to be an extinct pig, Australopithecus…
Sid: How come we don’t hear… we hear they found this missing link and all the publicity but we never find out that it turned out to be a pig?
Carl: Because of the liberal position to secularism. We have a generation that has liberal press and academia which turns deliberately from any reference to design and creation and assumes evolution to be the case.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone I’m speaking to him at his Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose, Texas which is near Dallas, Texas, Dr. Carl Baugh. He’s founder and director of the museum. He’s scientific research director for the world’s first hyperbaric biosphere. He is scientific research director for water reclamation and energized plant systems. The thing that is so fascinating to me he is the discoverer and excavation director of 2 major DINOSAURS! Yes that’s what I said DINOSAURS I mean the public has such a love affair at least children and children’s toys with dinosaurs. Carl you wrote a book I love the title it’s literally a new book it’s a hardback it’s called “Why Do Men Believe Evolution Against All Odds.” I’ve often wondered that, why did you write a book, why did you come up with this title?
Carl: Alright Sid it’s a pleasure to be on the broadcast with you today, and I hope listeners will just settle down drink a cup of coffee and get in on the conversation with us in their hearts and minds. The book needed to be written. I’ve been involved in this type of research for over 35 years. I found there are reasons why university professors, high school teachers, students, lay people, professional people adopt the theory of evolution or at least accommodate the theory of evolution. Then I began to research the actual support for the theory of evolution. I found it to be essentially non-existent in order to support the theory of evolution you have to completely skew the facts and slant the information ignoring a tremendous body of information. For instance, the dinosaurs you’re right I lecture almost worldwide by invitation and by practice, and often by radio and television, and people on all continents are mesmerized with dinosaurs. Not only have I directed the excavation, discovered and directed excavation of 2 major dinosaurs, but 6 other dinosaurs cropped up in the process. I’m currently excavating a site I discovered in northwestern Colorado and 8 different dinosaurs have cropped up in the 6 years of the excavation, and it’s an ongoing procedure. What surprises most people is these dinosaurs are not brute beasts like the evolutionary theory claims them to be…
Sid: You were not a consultant in Jurassic Park or something like that (laughing)?
Carl: No (laughing) because of my creation position that has been known for decades. Now there was a time, as I relate in the book, there was a time I believed and taught the theory of evolution and accommodated evolutionary practice even as a Bible believing born again Christian. There was a time when I accommodated the long ages and called it Progressive Creation, or the Gap Theory. Many very fine theologians and fine Christians unwittingly accommodate the long ages…
Sid: But, but, but wait a second based on everything that I have read, I know what the Bible says, but based on everything I have read it appears as though the earth is so much older than the age stated in the Bible that you have to come up with these various theories like the Gap Theory, or that years were not really what they are today back then.
Carl: Well I thought that to be the case until I actually got involved in the investigation and the research. As you know I’m a scientific research director of a project that has attracted the attention of NASA and has gathered invitations from universities and academic entities. On a broad scale when we begin to actually examine the data we were really surprised, for instance, what appears to be long ages in the rocks actually demonstrates, I’m going to use a technical term here, polystrate fossils. That means fossils that extend through various layers and many of these layers are interpreted to be tens of thousands, some of them millions of years in age, yet a single fossil extends sometimes up to 40 of these layers Sid, it’s absolutely incredible. In Tennessee there… Tennessee and other areas around the world…
Sid: Yeah but what is this mean that a single fossil goes through several of these layers. What does that mean?
Carl: Like a tree a palm tree that appears to be growing upright, but as I’m sure you know when water carries material after it’s waterlogged trees turn upright because the root systems are heavier. The branch systems are of course carried but the tops of the waters… so water carries these fossils that were living and probably still living at the time, we’re talking about Noah’s flood. Then sediments like coal deposits, shale deposits, limestone, sandstone, and then what we call cyclothems it repeats itself coal, limestone, sandstone, shale it repeats itself again coal, shale, limestone etcetera. What would be interpreted sometime to exceed 40 million years is actually deposit involving only days or weeks of time. For instance, at Glen Rose Nova was filming over my shadow and we had removed a layer of limestone by hand, it must be done by hand to be academically verified. We removed the layer of limestone and as I delicately excavated through the clays and their cameras were whirling I discovered, or we discovered, my assistants flagged me on both sides. We discovered a fossilized, coalified lepidodendron. Now that’s a plant a very tender plant it’s alive today but it only gets 16 – 18 inches in height. It’s called the lycopsid club moss, but in the fossil record it often got up to 120 feet in height. So here we found this fossilized, coalified lepidodendron on its side and as we excavated it one of the lateral roots extended 22 feet. I have some NASA engineers assisting me as we excavated that root, but again it was on its side. Sid 8 inches, an 8 inch nodule of that root extended into the limestone layer beneath, the rest of the fossil upon its side extended through the clays into the limestone layer above. Now according to evolutionary theory, you have 2 million years separating those 2 layers, but here the 2 layers were placed together while that plant was non-decomposed while it was still in place 2 layers of sedimentary deposits plus the clays in between formed, and it’s supposed to be about 2 million years apart. Oh I brought in a world class fluid hydrologist and dynamist Professor N. E. Clark University of Illinois. Professor Clark is a world class scholar and lecturer and he and another professor at the University of Illinois at the main campus Champaign Urbana. Calculated that due to the effect of the moon on this near global body of water, and we’re talking about Noah’s flood from the scriptures and the historic event. Due to the effect of the moon bringing these waters into resonance those layers were only 12 hours apart. So the point of the conversation is this, it appears that long ages had transpired but when we really examine the data the long ages are not there.
Sid: Yes Carl but what about something like radiocarbon dating that’s able to see things from millions of years old.
Carl: Okay now that’s the very first thing the populous brings up they read in the press that long ages had been assigned to the material. What isn’t normally realized, and I’ve had a number of objects radiocarbon dated. What they do not normally recognize is that radiocarbon changes its structure and its rate of decay with pressure, with temperature so that one scholar said “It’s a bag of worms.” And actually dinosaur bones I’ve had actual dinosaur bones, I’ve had carbon dated and they turn out to be just a few thousand years old. Now normally standard academic universities in the paleontology departments do not carbon date the dinosaur bones because they say well “Well if any carbon got in it leeched in.” So they rule out the potential because carbon dating only goes back a few thousand years since the half-life is roughly 5600 years, and that changes again with pressure and temperature. So when we look at the data, when we the needle jumps all over the place and then we see that dinosaur bones and other materials sometimes dates into the thousands of years like some of the material we’ve sent off to have carbon dated then that material isn’t normally published. In the book I refer to individual scholars who admit readily that carbon dating is not an accurate calculator.
Sid: Okay but what about the moon rocks brought back by the Apollo astronauts I mean don’t they show that the moon is something like 8 billion years old?
Carl: Now that’s very interesting because I’ve personally examined some of the moon rocks, and that was a special privilege. Those moon rocks reveal, now there’s no way the moon, the rocks of the moon, could show the age of the moon. The only way you can show the age of the moon is by the accumulation of sedimentary deposits. So some calculations were run assuming a certain low rate of cosmic dust would settle in. What they actually thought was when they landed on the moon was from 800 – 1250 feet of dust would be on the moon. However, when they got there less than 1/8 inch of (laughing) dust had accumulated on the moon, which relates back to about 6000 years of dust accumulation.