SID: Hello. Sid Roth here with Tommy Welchel. And you’ve seen people on television where they’ve been prayed for, and they’ve been overcome by the presence of God. What would happen if this happened miles away because the power of God was so strong. It can’t say the evangelists pushed them down. Tommy, what would happen at Azusa Street? How far away was the train station?
TOMMY: Six blocks.
SID: Six blocks. What would happen at the train station from the Glory that was at Azusa Street?
TOMMY: People would come into Azusa Street. They would ride in the train and they’d get off and start walking on the platform, and falling out, speaking in tongues. Some of the innocent workers were close to them, it would happen to them, too. And David Garcia came by and saw it. He thought a disaster had happened. And he’d go up and exam them, and he’s realizing they’re just speaking in tongues.
SID: Let those disasters happen. Speaking of David Garcia, tell me about the time he prayed for the man with the hole in his stomach.
TOMMY: That was something else. He said he had a big handkerchief hanging down over his stomach and it didn’t smell too good. When he came up, he asked the man, “What is your problem?” He said, “Well,” he told him, he said, he picked up and looked under and he says, his entrails just hung out, hung down on his side. And he says, so he put the flap back down and started praying. And he could feel his hand going in. And all of a sudden, he says, there was no body. So he just grabbed it and pulled it back up. There wasn’t even a hole.
SID: It just closed up.
TOMMY: It closed up. His entrails went back into his stomach and it closed up.
SID: And you know what one of the things that impressed me, Tommy? A lot of people that God was using were young people, 17-year-olds, 18-year-olds.
TOMMY: Eleven year-olds.
SID: Eleven. Tell me about someone 11 years old.
TOMMY: Ralph Riggs. Ralph said one of his biggest miracles that he saw, an old drunk had come in off the street, stunk of alcohol, very giant of a man, about six-foot-four, maybe 250 pounds. Ralph didn’t like it. But then all of a sudden he got close and he realized the man was blind, stone blind. So he had more compassion for him. He says, “What did you come here for?” He says, “Well there are people telling me, people are just, people come in here and they get healed.” He said, “I want my eyes healed.” He said, “Okay, let’s pray.” He prayed for the man. His eyes got healed. Even the stench of alcohol left. And later on through the Midwest, he had great revivals with the Assemblies of God, even my hometown. He had established his church there.
SID: And you know what’s so wonderful? Not only did Tommy hear these miracles stories, but these elderly people retained their anointing.
SID: So you actually saw miracles actually before your very eyes. Tell me one.
TOMMY: There was a couple that was brought from England. The child was a greyish color. He had some kind of blood disease. He wasn’t supposed to be alive. They brought him there and of course, they came up and said, “We want to see Sister Dundee.” I said, “Oh yeah, I’ll go get her.” And I got all excited.” So I ran up to Sister Dundee, literally dragging her over there. I said, “They got this sick child.” I said, “Give her the child.” She took the child and then she just prayed for him. She stood there and finally she just handed it back and said, “Okay, the child is healed.” Gave it back to them. She turned and walked on back and went into the church. And I sat there upset. I said, “I want to see the baby.” The woman brought the baby and she about dropped it. It looked normal. She prayed with it, and we had a good time.
SID: You know what I think is so wonderful? Tommy, sometimes when he prays for people, he then prays for the impartation and others pray. Tell me about a man in California, the 13-year-old girl.
TOMMY: A little girl. I really love this story because it was the revival that broke loose after I left. Her pastor, youth pastor, had hurt his leg in a football game, and he had it in a cast. Well when I was speaking, I had to come down and set in a certain area. And I said, “Now you people up there, you pray.” And I said, “I mean you young people as well as these older ones. You pray and if God tells you go preach and go pray for somebody, obey, go down and pray for them.” Well this little girl got up and she looked about 10, but she was 13. She walked down there, laid hands on this man and all of a sudden he started jerking and yelled, “Get the cast off.” They busted his cast off and he started dancing around the church. It took me a while to get that little girl over to me. Everybody was going crazy. And I said, “Sweetheart, how old are you?” She said, “Thirteen.” I said, “Did you know you could do this anywhere, any time?” She looked puzzled. She said, “Anywhere, any time?” I said, “Yes.” Sid, she went to her school and she was, they called her “the towel girl.” You see these little girls. Okay, the poor [unintelligible] got injured bad. They had him up on the gurney. She walked up to him and said, “I believe in Divine healing. I believe if I pray for you, you will be supernaturally healed. Would you like for me to pray for you?” She said he grunted out a “yes”. She laid hands and prayed for him. He got healed. He got up and the next play, it was him out there playing.
SID: Not only one time, two times, another player got healed. Pray for that impartation. Look into the camera and pray for the impartation.
TOMMY: I’m now praying for God to move in a supernatural way. Those saints laid their hands on me and imparted supernatural anointings on me, and now I’m going to do the same thing for you. I’m going to pray right now and ask God to come supernaturally upon you to receive supernatural gifts on you working this same anointing that was at Azusa Street, in Jesus’ name right now. Now listen. There is somebody out there that is laying on a couch and you’re very ill. Doctors say you’re not going to live. You’re a man. You’re going to live. Start saying, “I will live and not die.” Start getting up and you will be healed. Do it by faith now, in Jesus’ name.
SID: It’s time for that hundred-year prophecy to be on Planet Earth. Why not now? Why not you?
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Messianic Jewish Rabbi Jonathan Cahn of Beth Israel Congregation in Garfield, New Jersey. Jonathan recently gave a talk to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America that I believe is so prophetic I had so many people tell me “I must have Jonathan on the show.” The title was the “Harbinger” which means the warnings. You would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to see the warnings with hurricanes, and with 911. Jonathan why doesn’t everyone see what we see?
Jonathan: [Laughing] Why isn’t everybody saved? Because man has a hardened heart. Most people… you know we have a natural bias against judgment, we want things to go on… you know people are come from the world they want to go on. Yet as we were talking about yesterday that the amazing thing is the effect of 911 was as you called it a “30 day wonder.” For about 30 days there was all of a sudden the things of the world didn’t matter anymore. There was a longing for salvation for spirituality, as you said “The houses of worship were packed across America.” It accomplished what we could not accomplish with our tracts and with all that, it happened by that. So it just shows you the power, the potential of judgment for redemption.
Sid: On yesterday’s broadcast you said “It’s important to study the pattern of sin and judgment of Israel to get insight into what is about ready to happen in America.”
Jonathan: Exactly. Yeah God gives a very clear pattern for judgment and warning on a nation when it enters this critical period before the point of no return, but just right at the door. When ancient Israel… actually it’s happened throughout history throughout the Bible. The ultimate pattern is that God pleads with a nation, He pleads again with a nation, and again, and finally He allows the bricks of the wall to come down; there to be a breaching in the walls, and an enemy to come in attack delay devastation but on a limited scale to wake up the nation. Then there’s a lull, a period of peace, and that’s the period of grace. That’s the period where the nation has the chance to make its decision to either come back to God, to return to God, to recognize the sign for what it is, or to turn away from God completely. That’s where we are right now. 911 September 11th was the beginning of judgment on one hand, or the signs and warnings and wakeup calls of ultimate judgment on the other. There are key signs in the Bible. The key scripture is in Isaiah 9 where the people of the northern kingdom had gone so much into sin God let the enemy come in make his initial attack. Then instead of repenting, what Isaiah records in Isaiah 9:8 He says “The people said in arrogance ‘The bricks have fallen, but we will rebuild with quarried stones. The sycamore has been cut down, but we will replace them with cedars.’” Now in that alone there are about 8 signs, we talked about some of them yesterday. The key thing is the rebuilding America that came on Ground Zero and it came just last year that America instead of repenting said “We’re gonna rebuild stronger higher” just like they did in Israel. They began the rebuilding with a sign of the quarried stone, that’s what has to happen. So on Ground Zero this quarried stone came and was laid down and had a big commemoration service and they announce “We’re gonna build this, it’s gonna be this freedom stone. We’re gonna build a freedom tower” they did exactly without knowing it exactly what Israel did, but there’s more. There are specific signs given, and the next sign is in that verse. “The bricks are fallen, but we will rebuild with quarried stone. The sycamore has been cut down.” Alright the next sign linked to the beginning, the dawning judgment on a nation is the cutting down, the falling sycamore tree. Now a sycamore tree we would be safe in that because it doesn’t really grow in New York City, the Biblical sycamore tree. However, on September 11th a freak event happened in the destruction. A steel beam from the north tower was hurled from the sky across the sky went through the air and struck down a nearby object, it was a tree. The next day when people went to Ground Zero they found a tree lying on the ground pierced by the beam of the falling tower. That tree that was struck down by 911 was a sycamore tree. It was the western version of the sycamore tree literally named after that out of the Bible. The sign of the harbinger of the beginning of judgment; the striking down of the sycamore tree. It’s amazing because the people there focused on this they made a big thing of it they called it “The Tree of Ground Zero.” They had a whole commemoration about it, the whole thing not realizing that it was the sign of the beginning of judgment. But there’s more, there’s another sign. It says in the scripture it says “The sycamore has been cut down, or has fallen, but we will replace it with the cedar.” Now the Biblical cedar wasn’t called cedar it was called “Erez” the Erez tree, refers to a Pine tree it’s of the Conifer family, it’s also called the Panachia tree it is a very strong evergreen tree. Now an amazing thing, 2 years after September 11th at the end of 2003 a strange site over Ground Zero. An object is being lowered from the sky into the place, into the hole, where the sycamore tree had been struck down on the very same site. That object that was coming down was a tree; what kind of tree? It was a Panachia tree, the same exact tree mentioned in the Bible. The actual kind is a sister tree to the Cedar of Lebanon, the same thing spoken about. So they actually replaced the sycamore, you’d think they’d do it with another sycamore tree, instead they did it exactly according to the pattern of judgment. They replaced it with a cedar or Erez tree, which then they had a big ceremony around it and christened it and said “This is all part of our hope and all that.” Now that would be enough but there’s more. The ultimate sign here is of the scripture is that Israel had been chastened by the Lord, when He allowed that attack to come there response was to defy Him. It took the form of the leader saying “Listen the Lord may have struck down the bricks, but we’re gonna rebuild stronger with the quarried stone. He may have struck down the sycamore tree, but we’re gonna build stronger with the Cedar tree.” Well the actual sign is the words from the leaders themselves making this vow, and they made it right after the Assyrian army had come in. Well this is amazing, the word of this scripture… you know after 911 the next day September 12th, it was the morning of September 12th, the nation was just kind of reeling from the shock of it and the government issued its first response that morning. It was given by the head of the United States Senate representing the congress and the people it was democratic majority leader Tom Daschle. He said this he said “As the response of the nation as 3000 years ago it was done in Israel” this is what he said from United States Senate; this is in the records of Congress from Capitol Hill. Floor statement of Senate Majority leader, morning of September 12th, “It’s with pain anger resolve that I stand before this Senate a symbol for 212 years of the strength of our Democracy. These attacks were on our freedom…” He goes on and on, but then at the end he says this “I know there’s on the smallest measure of inspiration that can be taken from this devastation. But there is a passage in the Bible, from Isaiah, that I think speaks to all of us at times like this. ‘The bricks have fallen down, but we will rebuild with dressed stone; the fig trees, or the sycamore, have been felled, but we will replace them with cedars.’ That is what we will do. We will rebuild.” Here out of the mouth of the government of the Senate Majority Leader are the actual words. He thought they were words of encouragement he didn’t realize what he was doing…
Sid: No his aide gave him something out of context. It was just the opposite of what he meant.
Jonathan: Exactly. The thing is it was exactly. It was the exact verse of all the verses in the Bible. I mean most believers don’t even know this verse, but to choose this verse, and this is before he didn’t even realize he could not have realized this is a prophetic statement. Like Caiaphas when he made his prophetic statement without knowing what he was saying, one man should die for the nation. He’s saying this not realizing that actually that morning they discovered a sycamore tree struck down. They would actually fulfill this by replacing this 2 years later. That they would actually rebuild with a quarried stone, they would do everything he said. He didn’t realize this was the sign of the nation that is at the dawn its judgment. Unfortunately it is also a sign of the nation saying “We are not going to return” It’s the government saying… he was voted out of office after this, but the fact that that was the statement God had the very words. Actually it was repeated by John Edwards who was running for Vice President and just on the anniversary of 911 last year (2004) he used the same scripture. He based the whole… on his talk he had the same scripture without realizing that he was pronouncing judgment on America.
Sid: That is so phenomenal. Most Christians didn’t even understand that. How did God show this to you?
Jonathan: Well… [Laughing] One thing was 2 years before the event the Lord did something, before 911, did something before 911did something prophetic, which I want to share with you before the week’s over. He started revealing these things about it one thing after another. I happened to walk by, I was at Ground Zero and I saw where they had that tree and I said “There’s something about this tree down there. There’s something Biblical.” I started looking and all of a sudden that verse came up. I put it onto the internet expecting to find things about the Biblical verse and all of a sudden it turned up in the annals of congress on September 12th. Had no idea… that was after I already saw these were the signs of judgment. The more I looked into it the more it was one sign after the other every single thing. The leaders didn’t even realize the words they were saying from when they laid the stone at Ground Zero, they didn’t realize what they were say or when they said this from Congress. It’s God giving a sign to those who will hear, those who will listen. It’s not only to the na… I mean it’s to the nation, but it certainly was for His people because He said “If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves and turn from their evil ways.” It’s for us to lead any revival that’s gonna take place. We have to take this seriously, we are on limited borrowed time.
Sid: The truth of the matter is the Bible says that the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. And when you go into your average church as I go into and I say raise your hand if you want to be healed of a physical condition. The majority of the hands go up; it should not be for God’s people. I have on the telephone Henry Wright and I’m speaking to him at his church Pleasant Valley Church in Thomaston, Georgia. I’m interviewing him on the new updated version and I just can’t speak… I can’t put into words how valuable this tool is. It’s called “A More Excellent Way – Be in Health Spiritual Roots of Disease;” pathways to wholeness. And he has identified the major spiritual roots of the major diseases. Henry what causes with all the experience that you’ve had dealing with diseases any more importantly so many people being healed. What causes the deterioration of the body?
Henry: So as a man thinks in his heart so is he; out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Our bodies conform to the image of our spirituality. According to science unless a body is damaged by some type of disease every body part you have regenerates like brand new every 7 to 20 years; that includes your entire skeleton. Unless something interferes with that so God has built into regenerative powers until we fulfill our generation. However when you have body parts that begin to disintegrate such as spondylosis, or osteoarthritis, or a degeneration of body parts it is indicative to us in be in “Be In Health Global” that the person is attacking themselves in their identity their spirituality in the state of being and a state of belonging. And as they begin to put themselves down, as they begin to devalue who they are in creation as far as God is concerned…
Sid: Give me an example of someone that might be doing that.
Henry: One is very classic would be what’s called high cholesterol, or congestive heart failure. High cholesterol it’s not the cholesterol it’s not the issue; not whatsoever. Now if you have high cholesterol; if you have problems it would be good to watch out for your cholesterol until you could get the root issues dealt with. So I mean that’s true. But it’s not the cholesterol you need a certain amount of cholesterol
Sid: So if someone takes the medicine to lower their cholesterol are they really solving the root of their problem?
Henry: No their not solving the root at all; in fact that’s just the disease management and I’ll tell you something Sid in this conversation. God’s perfect will is not even to heal you; His perfect will is that you don’t get sick at all. And that’s found very clearly in Deuteronomy chapter 7. But getting back to this subject what happens, and this also is in indicative for what’s called congestive heart failure or heart congestion, is in the interior lining of the cardiovascular system there is a fissuring begins. When that fissuring like the cracking or alligatoring of the pavement or something. And the interior lining of the blood vessels begin to disintegrate on the interior lining creating fissuring. The cholesterol which is normal is flowing through the blood stream falls into these cracks and begins to collect and build up and as it now has a foothold in the veins and as it comes up it reaches out and other cholesterol attaches and bonds and you have the beginning of what is called high cholesterol, or congestive heart condition problems. The issue is not the cholesterol, the issue is what’s causing the fissuring and that is rooted deeply in self-rejection, and self-bitterness, and self-hatred.
Sid: Is it possible that someone could say “Well I’ve got this disease but I don’t reject myself; what is this man talking about. Is it possible that it could be blocked from the person?
Henry: Well, people don’t understand everything has become so normal. I suppose “dis-ease” is so normal today that human nature has become so broken-down and how we should think like and our spirituality it’s almost common to be goofy.It’s almost normal to be dysfunctional. A lot of people don’t recognize that the battles that they have with themselves because they become so one with the way of thinking that they consider it normal. I help people understand many times to help them understand self-rejection when I say “Do you make an allowance for failure? When you do something do you really have the confidence that it’s done right or do you go back and second guess and put yourself down.” And I promise you as we get into this conversation with people there’s a certain sector of people that absolutely do not believe in themselves and have this ongoing problem with identity.
Sid: Could you give me and your book is jammed backed with testimonies of people having been healed of every imaginable disease and the way in your book that you’ve approached this is first you have the teaching where you explain, then you take each disease explain the roots and explain how to solve that particular problem. So give me a real life example of someone with cardiovascular disease.
Henry: An example of cardiovascular disease is an issue we had case history of a person who was diagnosed with the clogging up of the arteries. When they dealt with the issue of self-hatred and they begin to love themselves because God loves us Sid. And God accepts us; if God loves us and God accepts us and if we don’t love ourself and we don’t accept ourselves then we put ourselves in absolute conflict with the living God. And it opens the door to another Kingdom to agree with us to come and give us. The enemy comes to kill, steal and destroy; and the Bible says the Lord said “I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly.” So in the case of where a person begins to forgive themselves and I’m giving you a case history here and that person begin to love themselves and begin to repent to God for hating themselves begin to repent to God for arguing with Him that He love them and accepted them. And the power of that was broken and the spirits of death were broken, the spirits of infirmity was broken, and when they were rechecked by their doctors they no longer had clogging of the arteries. I promise you in ministry we not only minister on these spiritual issues. But since there is these destruction of cardiovascular tissue then in the gift of miracles, the gift of healing there must be ministry in the Name of Jesus, or Yeshua, that God as a work of the Holy Spirit will fix the damage done to tissue. And boy that’s an exciting possibility to see God actually fix tissue that has been destroyed by disease.
Sid: Let me ask you a question. Many people that operate in the gift of miracles and I’ve been to these meetings where 20 people in wheelchairs get up out of their wheelchairs and start walking. Of course there’s probably about 6 or 700 that do not and that always concerned the minister. But then many times people that are healed walk out of these meetings and all of a sudden the symptoms all seem to come back and they seem to have lost their healing. Was it because the root was never dealt with?
Henry: Well, there’s two parts of this you’ve asked a very interesting theological and difficult question. First of all the roots weren’t dealt with, and that’s true, but the biggest issue is this you go back to the days of King Saul when the Spirit of God departed from King Saul a spirit of insanity came and King Saul went insane. And they called for David who came and played the anointed music and as David began to play the anointed music of God the spirit of insanity in King Saul could not stand the presence of God in King David. And the spirit of insanity departed from King Saul but as soon as David left see Saul hadn’t changed, Saul hadn’t changed his way of thinking. He hadn’t changed his spirituality at all. But when the anointing of God departed to King David the spirit of insanity came right back into King Saul. He want insane again and at the end of his life he committed suicide on the battlefield. This is a very good example of what happens many times in these settings.
Sid: It must bother you a lot when knowing what you know and also knowing very few Christians that love God with all their heart have this information that God has entrusted to you. How many written reports of testimonies do you have of people that have not been to a seminar of yours but just got a hold of this book and got their healing?
Henry: Oh, our files are filed with letters and emails and phone calls. One in particular was a service man that was in our US Army that was over in Kuwait. He had a disease and somebody had sent him my book all the way to Kuwait. He began to read what I said behind his disease and sure enough that was his battleground; that was his area of spiritual battles. And he saw it and he understood and he began to repent to God and began to tell God that he was going to get that out of his life. As he did that very shortly the disease disappeared. We have that in writing from the field.
Sid: Out of curiosity of all of the diseases known to man what do you find the easiest to be healed of when they follow your instructions.
Henry: Oh my goodness, the easiest probably would be allergies, I mean I think that out success in allergies is second to none in the world and I hope that people don’t miss understand this but Sid you’ve known me for several years now but I think probably this man talking to you Henry here I’m considered by many to be the foremost authority on allergies in the world Sid. And I don’t know of anyone, and I say this honestly and sincerely and I’m not bragging or promoting myself. This is an open conversation between you and I. I don’t know of anyone on this planet Sir that is having any more success in healing or prevention simple and complex allergies than this man talking to you. And those that are teaching our principals globally.
Sid: I know about this and I personally interviewed Jewish people that had to go live in the desert because they were allergic to so many things and they followed his principals and got totally healed.
Sid: I pray that you’re experiencing the outpouring of God’s Spirit that I’m experiencing right now people are being healed as they are listening; people’s who’s neck’s, you have a problem you move your head you’ll see your neck is healed. If you’re in a position to bend over you’ll see that pain gone your spine is healed. Backs are being healed, I mean there are multiple healings going on right now and isn’t that interesting that’s what I’m going to be talking about today because I have on the telephone Michael Hinson. Michael Hinson and Joan Hunter; Joan is the daughter of Charles and Francis Hunter, have a brand new book called “How to Heal the Whole Man Handbook.” And I’ll say this it’s revolutionary they take each disease, show you the causes and show you exactly how to pray. I mean you’ll want to take this with you and people that when they read this they order multiple copies of this book because there’s a teaching up front and this is so you can minister healing to others which is what you’re created to do but many need to be healed themselves. You start out by getting yourself healed. Now Michael before we went on the air you told me something that I actually have never heard before. I have heard of, and interviewed people on the air that have had meetings where everyone is healed. But I have never talked to anyone that has had multiple meetings where everyone is healed; especially in the United States; tell me what’s going on.
Michael: Well, this is new to me I just tagged up with Joan a couple of years ago Joan Hunter. And her mom and dad very gifted and you would see a lot of people healed in all there meetings and it was prophesied over and over again that Joan would receive a double anointing from her mom and dad. And in traveling in the meetings with her for the last two years I’ve been in meetings in the United States where I have seen everybody in the room healed. I’m talking about people who came in with oxygen are totally without it and are still without it to this day. People that are yellow jaundice with cancer and pain racked their body; the pain would leave them before they left the meeting; their skin was totally pink; it’s been six months for some of them. We get emails from them and their absolutely totally cancer free. People that are on the lung transplant list their doctors are calling us looking for what happened because they’re not on the list anymore and their lungs are like an 18 year olds, absolutely totally healed. I’ve seen this in many many meetings in the United States; it was rare to see it in a meeting overseas but in the last two years I’ve seen it repeatedly and the majority of the people in these meetings are healed.
Sid: Now when you have these meeting where the majority of the people are healed. Is there just like a special anointing that shows up; what’s making the difference you’re the same?
Michael: The thing that is different is that is that Jesus healed multiple ways; the Bible talks about that. He moved in the gifts of healing, he moved in faith and you had to minister when people had the faith for healing. And then also He led people through repentance; John the Baptist just led the nation, the Jews through repentance when Jesus came in. So that many of them already had hearts set; had repentant hearts. Jesus came and He ministered to the people. He told them the truth and truth set them free. The stuff and was inside of them that needed to change got changed and they got instantly healed. Joan in the meetings, and the meetings that we have, it is not uncommon to go in and to minister all three ways. And when you do you reach people in every direction they’re absolutely totally healed.
Sid: The thing that excites me is that most people cannot or will be at your meeting but everyone can get a hold of this book. Now there are certain areas in this book things that you teach I have never heard taught by anyone before. For instance, I’ve read and heard many books on forgiveness but you have a totally almost new insight into the whole subject of forgiveness. I wonder if you would explain that.
Michael: Well, that’s real easy I was taught from a young kid that God for gave sin so my question to everyone “If God forgave sin then why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Why didn’t God just (sound of Michael blowing into telephone) pour His Spirit out and everybody’s sin is forgiven. If God forgave sin why did Jesus have to die on the cross God could just forgive it and it would be over.” But the Bibles says Roman’s 6:23 “The wages of sin is death.” And we know that forgiveness doesn’t come without shed blood. So that we know that if blood has to be shed and the wages of sin is death, then God didn’t come; Jesus didn’t come to die for sin He came to die for sinners. He didn’t come to redeem sin from the world He came to redeem the sinners that would come to Him. Jesus died for people, He didn’t die for sin; and the Bible says that God separates the sin from the people as far as the east is from the west. Or actually in another version said “He cast it into the sea.” And actually that’s the picture of someone throwing a net and really deep water and losing it; what’s the chances of them ever getting it back; they won’t. But we’ve been taught many times to forgive sin. So we try to forgive somebody’s sin that they did, what they did that was wrong and try to say that it is right. But God doesn’t even do that.
Sid: Alright, let’s get real specific let’s suppose someone at a young age was molested by an uncle, and they’re Christian, and they believe now as an adult they must forgive that person but they’re having trouble. What would you advise?
Michael: This is the easiest of all and that’s what makes this so simple. You don’t forgive the sin, the sin is sin you can’t forgive the sin. But what you can do is choose to separate the sin from the person. We use a tissue box as an example and it’s really common and we say that the tissue box is the person and the tissues inside that box are the sin. We lead them through a prayer and the prayer is very simple they say this and the people that are hearing this on the radio listen to this and you may need to say this yourself.
Sid: I tell you why don’t you just say that prayer I’ll repeat it and people will repeat it with me?
Michael: Okay that’s easy enough.Father
Michael: What they did to me was sin
Sid: What they did to me was sin
Michael: Take this sin from them
Sid: Take this sin from them
Michael: and separate it from them.
Sid: and separate it from them.
Michael: and put it on the cross of Jesus Christ.
Sid: and put it on the cross of Jesus Christ.
Michael: and free them from it
Sid: and free them from it
Michael: and on the day of judgment
Sid: and on the day of judgment
Michael: I’ll hold no accusation against them
Sid: I’ll hold no accusation against them
Michael: they’ll be free of this sin.
Sid: they’ll be free of this sin.
Michael: even now they are free.
Sid: even now they are free
Michael: Father, bless them.
Sid: Father, bless them.
Michael: in Jesus Name.
Sid: In Jesus Name.
Michael: It is the separation of sins not the forgiveness of sins, many times in our own conscientiousness try to forgive people thinking that we’re forgiving the sin almost saying that it’s okay, it’s all right. The sins not alright, the wages of sin is death, but the person can be alright if we separate the sin from them. That’s what God did for us.
Sid: But what happens if it’s say a spouse and the spouse has forgiven their husband, but the husband keeps doing the same sin over and over?
Michael: That makes it tough because that’s the part… Peter said “Jesus I’ve got this sin thing down but how many times am I supposed to forgive them; seven times seven? And Jesus said “No, seventy times seven.” If you take it to the Greek it means even for the same sin.” Now if you were to sin against me 490 times in one day one of us would need therapy by the end of the day, but what God was saying it’s His nature to forgive people who keep coming back in repentance. That’s His nature and we’re to develop His nature and to release that.
Sid: So you actually… forgiveness occurs whether that person that has wounded you repents or not.
Michael: When Steven the first martyr was being stoned to death no one cried out in asked for forgiveness when he chose to forgive them for stoning him to death. When Jesus was on the cross He chose to forgive and He told us with the measure that we use it will be measured back to us. In fact in the Lord’s Prayer it says…
Sid: I’ll tell you what I want 100% forgiveness.
Michael: And to do that you have to forgive 100%, if anybody from your past were to come and sit down beside you right now and it would change your breathing pattern, your past or your present. Someone you think you forgiven and they would come and sit down right beside you right now and it would change your breathing pattern my question to you is why? If you were eating sitting down at dinner tonight or at a restaurant and somebody from your past or present comes and sits down beside you and it would change the way you enjoyed that meal my question is why?
Sid: Okay let’s take that as a literal example; someone sits down in the restaurant and you are uncomfortable what do you do about it?
Michael: Okay, this again is very very simple. All you have to do is ask the Holy Spirit why? Ask God why, He will tell you He will show you in a minute you’ll be able to see in your heart if you’re willing to open your heart up what you’re uncomfortable with. Chances are it’s either something that you’re holding in your heart it could be judgment, unforgiveness, it actually could be an ongoing sin that other person is responsible for. But you know that people that are in sin are hardest to reach out to them with compassion. The Bible tells us to lead them in correction if they’re a brother or sister in the Lord; but that we should have compassion in our heart for them. And if we have anything other than compassion then that means that something inside of us needs to change in which case we can release them from the debt. Jesus told people who didn’t release others from debt they were no different than the tax collectors. And the tax collectors used to sit outside of the wall of the city and they wouldn’t let you into the city until you paid the debt that was owed to Caesar. Many of us are like that today and we think that people owe us a debt, and unless they pay that debt to us we’re not going to let them in our heart. Husbands and wives quite often do that to each other because the other spouse hurt them and they’re not going to let them into their heart until that other spouse pays the debt. But Jesus said that we’re to release that debt, freely release it. Did they deserve it? No, they really don’t probably don’t but we didn’t deserve it either and Jesus freely gave it to us and that is part of His nature. If we have God’s nature in us and we do as Christians then we’re to freely give forgiveness just as freely as He gave it to us in fact with the measure that we use is measured back to us.