Sid: There are innuendos in college and in high school, calculated plans to talk people out of their faith and it’s called the theory of evolution and every Bible believer knows that it’s not true because as a Bible believer we believe in creationism. But isn’t it good to get scientific answers to these objections rather than saying “Well I just believe it.” I mean haven’t you wrestled with people saying how old the earth is and how old the Bible says it is, and how there’s a conflict right there, and people have come up with various theories? Well on yesterday’s broadcast I was interviewing Dr. Carl Baugh who is founder and director of Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose, Texas, and he just blew those arguments out of the water. Carl today I have to ask you this question, there’s so much about cloning and DNA and we’re getting so close to creating human life, what would your response be?
Carl: Alll…right now that’s a very interesting topic. You probably don’t know, perhaps you do we’ll talk about it later that I’m the scientific research director of the world’s first hypobaric biosphere dealing with the living systems in a context like we had originally from a Jewish, Hebrew-Jewish, Christian, Judeo context Genesis and Exodus. We’re actually simulating those conditions and examining living systems and what would occur there. There is a lot of popular talk about creating life in a test tube, but when you get to the individuals involved in the projects they admit readily that they are not creating life at all. What they’re taking is existing life form and using what’s termed genetic recumbenance of recombining portions, strands of DNA from one living system with the strands of DNA from another system and since it’s already living to begin with it is sometimes temporarily a viable entity lives for a period of time, bizarre life forms but they’re not creating life. The law of biogenesis states very clearly that only life begets life. Now we can toy with life, we think we can improve life but we really can’t. Every living system has a genetic potential within a certain realm and while that genetic potential can be shuffled on the surface, and we call that microevolution. No problem with microevolution that’s variation within genetic boundary, but it’s macroevolution where the theory is that somehow mutational change environmental adaptation natural selection can give you an increased amount of information to lead to a life form. That really isn’t true, you can only get living systems out of living systems. So the cloning which is really a duplicate copy, again begins with a living system, but then they will introduce new genes into a living system and call it a new life form. Well it’s really a combination of 2 life forms and normally it has a very limited viability.
Sid: Let me change the subject just for a second, there are people that say they are Bible believers and they’re scientists and they there are certain aspects of the theory of evolution. They are scientific and they’re not going to throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater they’re going to keep it. Are there aspects of the theory of evolution that are scientific?
Carl: There are aspects if we are talking microevolution. That is change within genetic information, that’s microevolution, but it’s the theory that over periods of time mutational change, or various small catastrophes, alter the genes so that you get another life form that is a higher organism, that is totally unscientific. Many good Bible believing professional Christians have been led to believe that the earth is old so that there have been changes of one species, or one kind. In the Hebrew you would call that, or we would call that the beremum, the kinds, one kind leading to another, but that has never been demonstrated in the laboratory. Plus in the book I talk about life origins and the fact that those life origins have never been demonstrated to have occurred naturally in fact can’t. Like on page 16 I quote Professor Leslie Orgell stating:
It is extremely improbable that proteins and nucleic acids, both of which are structurally complex, arose spontaneously in the same place at the same time. Yet it also seems impossible to have one without the other. And so, at first glance, one might have to conclude that life could never, in fact, have originated by chemical means.
And he’s right and good Bible believing Christians often do not know the facts. You see one field trust another life. The geologist at the university… you go to the geologist and you say “Show me evolution.” He’d say “Well I can’t show it to you go to the biologist we trust him he has the information.” You go to the biologist and say “I need information proving evolution.” He says “Well I can’t give it to you go to the paleontologist he’ll give it to you.” You go to the paleontologist and he says “Well we interpret the fossils but we really can’t prove evolution you’re going to have to go the geologist.” So it’s circuitous route…
Sid: It’s called “Passing the buck” (laughing).
Carl: Passing the buck is exactly right (laughing).
Sid: Dr. Baugh but what about, I mean these are questions that I have pondered. I believe the Bible but I’ve pondered these things but what about from time to time you open up the newspaper and you hear about the missing link. Is there any truth to these things? I mean these are real scientists that are involved in studying these missing links the apes that go back to the humans.
Carl: I have an entire chapter dealing with progression of life forms in the book dealing with that very subject. Anthropologist, physical anthropologist, or paleoanthropologist, those who deal with the distant ancient past history of mankind as they determine like to bring up the various missing links, but amazingly every single specimen disproves the original theory so that we finally come to the conclusion… and in the book I verify this by leading professors. We finally come to the conclusion that on one hand we have 8 sometimes bizarre lower primates, on the other hand we have homosapien man, or Homo habilis, or homo erectus, we have those interpreted in form or another, but when the final data come in you only have two chance. Sometimes you’ll have a human skull that’s slightly bizarre because of various conditions and inbreeding which can produce Neanderthal types in a matter of just 3 generations. Did you know that Sid?
Sid: No, never.
Carl: You can get Neanderthal types, we have that documented in the literature, in just 3 generations. So we isolate a culture of people and have inbreeding or limited genetic viability then you get bizarre characteristics. Sometimes you’ll find in a fossil or a grave burial site various individuals that look a little bizarre but they are not apes. Now let’s get to the technical data to prove that an ape can never become a man. One of the scholars I quote in the book, Dr. Barney Maddox, a geneticist, shows that the difference between the lower primates, or chimpanzees, or apes we would say in general, the genetic difference between an ape and a man is only 1.6%. Now at first that appears to be very alarming. Here you have an ape 98.4% genetically identical or similar to a human being. So wouldn’t it be very easy to bridge that gap? Not at all! First of all that 98.4% of genetic information has to do with the fact that he has a spinal column, has appendages, we have a spinal column we have appendages. He has a skull, he has a braincase, he has a brain, he has eyes and nose and mouth, he has hair, he has legs, actually an ape really has 4 arms in a very specific sense. But all of those are 4 appendages and all of that requires genetic information so that is 98.4% identical to us because we have arms, we have legs, we have hands, we have feet, an ape has 4 hands actually but we call those again 4 appendages. We have a skull, we have a braincase, we have a cerebrum all these things together comprise genetic information, but it’s the 1.6% difference that is extremely important. At first glance it would appear that bridging that 1.6% gap would be easy but it is absolutely impossible. I mention Dr. Barney Maddox a specialist in genetics and he showed that 1.6% difference represents 48 million nucleotide differences. Any accumulation of 3 these in succession, or adjacent to each other, totally destroys the host organism. So Sid what we find in actual scientific research is, it is impossible to bridge the gap from ape to man. Each is species specific and genetic specific. In fact I quote in the book on page 76 “An admission by Scientific American that the study of human origins,” that’s where we’re talking about a fossil man “seems to be a field in which every discovery raises debate to a more sophisticated level of uncertainty.” And in the book on page 77, I think we may want to discuss those at a later date. We talk about each of these Piltdown man, Nebraska man which turned out to be an extinct pig, Australopithecus…
Sid: How come we don’t hear… we hear they found this missing link and all the publicity but we never find out that it turned out to be a pig?
Carl: Because of the liberal position to secularism. We have a generation that has liberal press and academia which turns deliberately from any reference to design and creation and assumes evolution to be the case.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone I’m speaking to him at his Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose, Texas which is near Dallas, Texas, Dr. Carl Baugh. He’s founder and director of the museum. He’s scientific research director for the world’s first hyperbaric biosphere. He is scientific research director for water reclamation and energized plant systems. The thing that is so fascinating to me he is the discoverer and excavation director of 2 major DINOSAURS! Yes that’s what I said DINOSAURS I mean the public has such a love affair at least children and children’s toys with dinosaurs. Carl you wrote a book I love the title it’s literally a new book it’s a hardback it’s called “Why Do Men Believe Evolution Against All Odds.” I’ve often wondered that, why did you write a book, why did you come up with this title?
Carl: Alright Sid it’s a pleasure to be on the broadcast with you today, and I hope listeners will just settle down drink a cup of coffee and get in on the conversation with us in their hearts and minds. The book needed to be written. I’ve been involved in this type of research for over 35 years. I found there are reasons why university professors, high school teachers, students, lay people, professional people adopt the theory of evolution or at least accommodate the theory of evolution. Then I began to research the actual support for the theory of evolution. I found it to be essentially non-existent in order to support the theory of evolution you have to completely skew the facts and slant the information ignoring a tremendous body of information. For instance, the dinosaurs you’re right I lecture almost worldwide by invitation and by practice, and often by radio and television, and people on all continents are mesmerized with dinosaurs. Not only have I directed the excavation, discovered and directed excavation of 2 major dinosaurs, but 6 other dinosaurs cropped up in the process. I’m currently excavating a site I discovered in northwestern Colorado and 8 different dinosaurs have cropped up in the 6 years of the excavation, and it’s an ongoing procedure. What surprises most people is these dinosaurs are not brute beasts like the evolutionary theory claims them to be…
Sid: You were not a consultant in Jurassic Park or something like that (laughing)?
Carl: No (laughing) because of my creation position that has been known for decades. Now there was a time, as I relate in the book, there was a time I believed and taught the theory of evolution and accommodated evolutionary practice even as a Bible believing born again Christian. There was a time when I accommodated the long ages and called it Progressive Creation, or the Gap Theory. Many very fine theologians and fine Christians unwittingly accommodate the long ages…
Sid: But, but, but wait a second based on everything that I have read, I know what the Bible says, but based on everything I have read it appears as though the earth is so much older than the age stated in the Bible that you have to come up with these various theories like the Gap Theory, or that years were not really what they are today back then.
Carl: Well I thought that to be the case until I actually got involved in the investigation and the research. As you know I’m a scientific research director of a project that has attracted the attention of NASA and has gathered invitations from universities and academic entities. On a broad scale when we begin to actually examine the data we were really surprised, for instance, what appears to be long ages in the rocks actually demonstrates, I’m going to use a technical term here, polystrate fossils. That means fossils that extend through various layers and many of these layers are interpreted to be tens of thousands, some of them millions of years in age, yet a single fossil extends sometimes up to 40 of these layers Sid, it’s absolutely incredible. In Tennessee there… Tennessee and other areas around the world…
Sid: Yeah but what is this mean that a single fossil goes through several of these layers. What does that mean?
Carl: Like a tree a palm tree that appears to be growing upright, but as I’m sure you know when water carries material after it’s waterlogged trees turn upright because the root systems are heavier. The branch systems are of course carried but the tops of the waters… so water carries these fossils that were living and probably still living at the time, we’re talking about Noah’s flood. Then sediments like coal deposits, shale deposits, limestone, sandstone, and then what we call cyclothems it repeats itself coal, limestone, sandstone, shale it repeats itself again coal, shale, limestone etcetera. What would be interpreted sometime to exceed 40 million years is actually deposit involving only days or weeks of time. For instance, at Glen Rose Nova was filming over my shadow and we had removed a layer of limestone by hand, it must be done by hand to be academically verified. We removed the layer of limestone and as I delicately excavated through the clays and their cameras were whirling I discovered, or we discovered, my assistants flagged me on both sides. We discovered a fossilized, coalified lepidodendron. Now that’s a plant a very tender plant it’s alive today but it only gets 16 – 18 inches in height. It’s called the lycopsid club moss, but in the fossil record it often got up to 120 feet in height. So here we found this fossilized, coalified lepidodendron on its side and as we excavated it one of the lateral roots extended 22 feet. I have some NASA engineers assisting me as we excavated that root, but again it was on its side. Sid 8 inches, an 8 inch nodule of that root extended into the limestone layer beneath, the rest of the fossil upon its side extended through the clays into the limestone layer above. Now according to evolutionary theory, you have 2 million years separating those 2 layers, but here the 2 layers were placed together while that plant was non-decomposed while it was still in place 2 layers of sedimentary deposits plus the clays in between formed, and it’s supposed to be about 2 million years apart. Oh I brought in a world class fluid hydrologist and dynamist Professor N. E. Clark University of Illinois. Professor Clark is a world class scholar and lecturer and he and another professor at the University of Illinois at the main campus Champaign Urbana. Calculated that due to the effect of the moon on this near global body of water, and we’re talking about Noah’s flood from the scriptures and the historic event. Due to the effect of the moon bringing these waters into resonance those layers were only 12 hours apart. So the point of the conversation is this, it appears that long ages had transpired but when we really examine the data the long ages are not there.
Sid: Yes Carl but what about something like radiocarbon dating that’s able to see things from millions of years old.
Carl: Okay now that’s the very first thing the populous brings up they read in the press that long ages had been assigned to the material. What isn’t normally realized, and I’ve had a number of objects radiocarbon dated. What they do not normally recognize is that radiocarbon changes its structure and its rate of decay with pressure, with temperature so that one scholar said “It’s a bag of worms.” And actually dinosaur bones I’ve had actual dinosaur bones, I’ve had carbon dated and they turn out to be just a few thousand years old. Now normally standard academic universities in the paleontology departments do not carbon date the dinosaur bones because they say well “Well if any carbon got in it leeched in.” So they rule out the potential because carbon dating only goes back a few thousand years since the half-life is roughly 5600 years, and that changes again with pressure and temperature. So when we look at the data, when we the needle jumps all over the place and then we see that dinosaur bones and other materials sometimes dates into the thousands of years like some of the material we’ve sent off to have carbon dated then that material isn’t normally published. In the book I refer to individual scholars who admit readily that carbon dating is not an accurate calculator.
Sid: Okay but what about the moon rocks brought back by the Apollo astronauts I mean don’t they show that the moon is something like 8 billion years old?
Carl: Now that’s very interesting because I’ve personally examined some of the moon rocks, and that was a special privilege. Those moon rocks reveal, now there’s no way the moon, the rocks of the moon, could show the age of the moon. The only way you can show the age of the moon is by the accumulation of sedimentary deposits. So some calculations were run assuming a certain low rate of cosmic dust would settle in. What they actually thought was when they landed on the moon was from 800 – 1250 feet of dust would be on the moon. However, when they got there less than 1/8 inch of (laughing) dust had accumulated on the moon, which relates back to about 6000 years of dust accumulation.
Sid: I’ve been speaking all of this week with Dave Roberson Senior Pastor of Family Prayer Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He has been teaching on the basics of fasting that’s been revolutionizing people all over the world. On yesterday’s broadcast we’ve were talking about a simple fisherman. Dave and he was locate where the Amazon?
Dave: Yes Sid I believe the Amazon State along the Amazon River.
Sid: Before we even go to him to do this teaching why do you need to get these cassettes out to as many people as possible?
Dave: Sid in my walk with God as I discovered praying in tongues as a revelation gift and my life began to increase and the anointing on it. Then I found out there was ceilings of flesh that were destroyed through fasting and a combination of prayer and fasting a Jesus said caused devils to come out and destroy unbelief and all of these kinds of things. Well it builds with indifference and complacency and causes, you know that love Jesus’s is talking about which is compassion. And it does away with that old flesh that competition spirit. You know who’s got….who’s doing a greater work who’s more anointed who has more people. See those things of the flesh that if Jesus taught through prophecy in Isaiah 58 that fasting you deal your bread to the hungry and that you hide not yourself from your own flesh that whatever it is that’s in me that just didn’t care the day that you decide to fast is the day that you’re not going to hide anymore from whatever is in you that just doesn’t care. Well through fasting the Lord is able to destroy indifference and complacency and build compassion in me. And I lost that old competition spirit now there’s a principal the word has called the sower overtakes the reaper. I’ve been in ministry 27 years and it was a fisherman that fisherman along the Amazon and the Amazon State in Brazil I had the privilege of teaching him for 5 years. I would go for twice a year to Brazil and teach them 6 hours a day for a week a gathering of preachers. So this particular one I was able to sow 27 years of my life making of mistakes finding the right path keeping, praying, edifying him growing in fasting. And I was able to sow into his life in 5 years what took me 27 to produce. So now this fisherman whose only 5 years old in the teaching that got the tapes that I taught, in Portuguese of course translated, in 5 years Sid what’s taken me 27 he’s overtaking my harvest in 5 years. And he’s such a simple fisherman that he just throws his net and fishes. But now they come in by the groves and lay their sick at his feet and he pays for them and there’s miracles and people are being swept into the kingdom of God.
Sid: Could he have just been one of those warehouse pastors that they talk about they’re just warehouse Christians that though they stay saved so they can go to heaven could he just have been one of those warehouse pastors that had maybe 50 maybe a 100 people in his church if he hadn’t moved into breaking the ceiling in his life?
Dave: Sid he could. No I’ve blazed a trail through most of the countries through America preached in so many churches like that you know. And if the devil will come sometimes and give the pastor such a beating that he’ll begin to gravitate towards the flesh and finally create a comfort zone for people and kind of babysit them through their life and doesn’t cause any waves there kind of a user friendly church you know just to keep them all happy in the flesh and babysit them until they go to heaven. Thank God for His mercy and grace you know for those that are saved that He is able to take to heaven. But I can tell you this Sid especially in that fasting series we’ve been talking about, that if you are caught in a trap like and you’re hungry to feed your spirit and you want to know how to break out of it. You know this is what’s taking me 27 years to learn and I’m in prime now I rejoice when somebody shows me their destiny when in a short time they take the harvest. I just rejoice absolutely and to answer your question yes this pastor Sid he could have stayed there but because he was hungry I believe that God had him cross our path because he wanted more just like that everyone that’s listening to the broadcast is crossing our path Sid because they’re hungry.
Sid: What about someone that’s been working most of their life that’s been a believer going to church know that there’s something more but has never got beyond the milk stage. And most of his life is almost over is it too late for that person?
Dave: You know I asked God that question and He answered me back and said “Are they still breathing?” (Laughing) And I said “Yes.” And then He said “Then there is hope.” As you get into this you start walking in the Spirit like we’ve been teaching it takes a very short time Sid to redeem what you’ve lost and begin to walk in His power. In fact He’s had me tell several people you know up in their 60’s some in their 70’s even that if they get into this and some of them have that they can do more in the few years that’s left than all of the years that they’ve thrown away. Yes there’s great hope, great great hope.
Sid: Dave in your own ministry.
Dave: Yes Sir.
Sid: As a result of learning how to move in the Spirit and not be held to those ceiling levels by the flesh have you’ve seen an increase of the miraculous?
Dave: (Laughing) Oh yes the meeting that I just had not long ago in India had half a million people present and Sid one last prayer 5,000 peoples teeth was filled with gold at the moment of prayer. Not counting the blind and the lame that walked that night and 200,000 people were born again because when the teeth started filling up with gold and silver where big rotten cavities were seconds before. Many of them began to scream and so these lost people began to gather around them and look into their mouths and they could see what was happening. And so it resulted in 200,000 being born again.
Sid: If that…if you have reports like this outside of the United States are you seeing anything in the United States as far as the miraculous?
Dave: (Laughing) Just 6 months ago in Palm Springs I was there with Norvel Hayes and Tim Story and there was a doctor there too Dr. Shaw. And a woman’s teeth was filled with silver and gold just right there on the spot and so Brother Norvel said “Let me see it” and he went over and looked into their mouth and Tim Story said “Let me see it.” And he ran over and looked and then the doctor examined her. And then we went on to Seattle and we went on television there and a woman’s teeth were filled and they zoomed in on her with the camera and not only those kind of miracles. And the last meeting I had last week 30 or 40 people’s eyes were healed Sid just 1 move of the Spirit.
Sid: Dave right at this moment would you pray for miracles for our listeners?
Dave: Oh yes, heavenly Father everyone that is hearing this right now any kind of pain that’s in their body I take absolute authority over it now. And Jesus that same life that’s in You I think that it’s in me and it’s in them and Father every pain causing disease I speak to it in the name of Jesus to be healed. And Father any hurts, any inner healing where people’s emotions have been destroyed I thank You for the flood gates opening of your grace and mercy and healings. I speak peace Father and I command all torment to leave. Move by the power of Your Holy Spirit for it. I give You all the praise, the honor and the glory be healed in Jesus name.
Sid: And Dave was praying I heard cancer I command in the name of Jesus spirits of cancer to cease and desist there work and to get off of God’s people now in Yeshua’s name. I just feel it lifting off of people right now. And would you pray for gold teeth?
Dave: Oh yes, Father thank You for the workings of absolute miracles. Every rotten cavity, every crooked teeth, every tender nerve, every gum, every TMJ Jaw in Jesus mighty name I speak a creative miracle. I command those teeth to be filled with silver and gold to be restored within them. All gum diseases to be healed and all bone related problems in Jesus mighty name.