Sid: I have Bob Griffin on the telephone he’s ministering in Charlotte, North Carolina he’s a prophet and on yesterday’s broadcast we find out that God showed him what would happen on September 11th and it did but he showed it before hand. Now Bob on yesterday’s broadcast you explained how God took you a long way and really became real set you free from addictions and all of a sudden dreams started coming to you. We talked about your first dream that you had in which you literally were set free. But you actually started smelling cancer explain that.
Bob: Absolutely I had so many experiences after the infilling of the Holy Spirit I had mentioned on yesterday’s broadcast that I had never had a dream. And what was interesting is that in the days to follow everything in me became alive. Everything in me I became aware of things I began to smell things literally for the first time. I began to see in ways I had never seen before it was literally like the scales had dropped from my eyes.
Sid: Now was it a little scary?
Bob: Well it was I was in a whole new world; I was in translated into a kingdom although I didn’t have that description or that vocabulary at the time I literally was just brought into a brand new place and it was a little bet frightening because I began to know things, I began to know things and I could not quit praying to the depths that I had done on drugs out in the world all of a sudden I was praying and seeking God. I had this tenacious hunger I couldn’t get rid of the hunger I would steal away and I would just read the word for hours on end. I began to pray in the Holy Spirit and I would build myself up and I would pray sometimes 5, 6, 7 hours a day. I would wake up in the middle of the night praying my spirit man my kingdom figure inside of me would just keep on praying. And it was during that period of time that I began to know things and I began to smell things and I began to hear things. At first it was frightening because I had to literally learn to discern. I had to learn what was from the Lord and what wasn’t from the Lord. But the one easy thing that I had is that everything that I had ever desired to do was rooted probably in wickedness and un-forgiveness but the things that the Lord was speaking to me were so fresh that I knew that it wasn’t my thoughts. So it was very easy for me in the very beginning to begin to discern His voice and it became harder later as I began to get rooted in the church and had to learn a new type of discernment because I suddenly realized how insidious the enemy was in trying to come into the church.
Sid: For sure. Bob there’s a problem and I’m expressing this I’m articulating it right now on behalf of a lot of our listeners.
Sid: And that is we have heard prophecy after prophecy that has not come to past, we’ve gotten cynical over it, we’ve had dreams and in these dreams they’re symbolic and we reach a point where we say “Well I’m not even sure if it was my pizza or whether it was God and if it was God I’m not sure what He’s saying.” And there’s such great confusion and cynicism and many people that are charismatic in expression have literally found themselves slipping back into good fundamental churches because of all of the wackiness. Would you address that?
Bob: I certain will it’s interesting that here I am speaking about a Hebrew word but the Hebrew word for dream is khalom and it literally means to recover or to plump. And what I believe the Spirit of the Lord is doing right now is He’s pouring out His Spirit in dreams to recover our hearts and to recover us because we have become cynical there are so many times I’ll just admit in my travels around the world I’ve been in nation after nations now it just 12 years of ministry, but I see the pathetic more than I see the true prophetic. I see things that are just…I see people propping up lies verses prophesying and there’s just been a tremendous call in the Spirit for the truth to come forth for the people to just really truly minister by the Spirit of the Lord. And there’s a difference in ministering by the spirit and having divination. You know when I began to discern God was doing things I would walk into a room and I would smell the cancer I didn’t know why I knew it was cancer I just knew that it was cancer and I would step out on a limb and live in that realm of faith and I would speak it out and it would come to pass.
Sid: Tell me one particular case where you smelled it and you commanded it to leave and the person was healed.
Bob: Well I walked into a room at one point and I began to smell a really foul odor in fact I couldn’t even place where it was coming from but as I was praying I kept feeling like this is the spirit of death. And so I began to look around the room to see where it’s coming from and what’s it doing and I began to set my eyes on somebody and as I began to set my eyes on them I just suddenly knew I don’t know how I knew they’re experiencing cancer. So I walked up and just kind of tested the waters you know I mean this is kind of a new thing for me I walked up and I said “Excuse me are you praying about an illness and they said “Yes.” And I said “Is it cancer?” And they said “Yes, I believe that God wants us to take authority over it right now.” And we began to pray and later we would get reports from people. We were out in Salina, Kansas and we were praying in a meeting and I was praying for a young man who had chemotherapy radiation burns on his head he was bald. He had a tumor half the size of an egg on his forehead and I was praying for him to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit to literally be baptized in the Holy Ghost. And while my hand was upon him I heard the Lord say “Open your eyes.” Well I opened my eyes just in time to see this cancerous tumor just go and disappear right out of his forehead. And I didn’t know what to say I was shocked, I looked at him and said “Hey dude what happened to your head?” And he reached up to feel it and he started putting his hand around his whole head trying to find where did that tumor go and all of a sudden the Lord had me point at a couple standing next to him and I said “Now do you believe?” And this man hand shot up in the air and as they shot up in the air they fell over speaking in tongues. I turned to a pregnant girl next to them and I said “Now do you believe?” And she started speaking in tongues and I later found out that the young man was the cousin of the man with the tumor and he had come there to mock me in the meeting even as I had mocked that evangelist from the beginning. But the demonstration of the Spirit of God is what’s changing’s people’s cynical minds. And as Paul’s saying “I don’t come with persuasive words of man’s wisdom but in a demonstration of the Spirit and power.” And so when we demonstrate the Spirit of the supernatural people who were cynical suddenly have nothing to stand on anymore. When you speak a word out and you foretell an event then it comes to past I believe that the Holy Spirit, I believe the angel of the Lord stands over that testimony to refute any demonic principalities that would try to steal the faith from those that are hearing it. And so the demonstrations are what causing people to change in their hearts.
Sid: Is the change in the Spirit going on? Is the real ready to come forth?
Bob: I was in a meeting last night that was so powerful such an outpouring of the Spirit of the Lord that we went in there anticipating that we were going to prophesy over the children. And I had asked the adults to bring your children in and we had probably somewhere over a 100 to a 120 children brought in last night. Just spontaneously they just began to dance before the Lord and when they did during the time of worship they were just bored, they were arguing, they were pushing each other it was very uncomfortable. And I got up and went into a prophetic song and when I did the whole atmosphere changed. And when the atmosphere changed the little kids came up and started dancing and all of a sudden there was powerful praise and God began to pour out His Spirit for healing. And a man we already prayed for a word of knowledge for a tooth it was interesting the Lord said there’s a tooth the left side upper jaw. After we prayed for the man he apparently fell down and was gasping for air in this crowd of people and somebody said “He’s having a heart attack, somebody said he’s needing an inhaler he’s needing something.” He was having a seizure, we took authority over a spirit of affixation and you can hear as that spirit was convulsing him the spirit leaving him and leaving that building. I mean it was just amazing and testimonies have some forth today of all of these little children that got saved because they saw this. We had one little boy that was sobbing for hours and I walked up to him at the end of the meeting and I said “What’s wrong?” And he just was smiling, he was crying he looked scared I said “Are you scared?” He said, “No.” He said, “Jesus is real.” And you know I’m seeing that this is the outpouring that God wants; He’s wanting these little children to demonstrate to people how to enter into the kingdom. When these little children got a hold of the prophetic words they began just coming forward and just ministering to the Lord and hands up and tears coming down their faces and bringing other little kids for prayer not even just themselves. We had 2 little girls that brought a little white girl up to me and I said “What do you want?” And they said “She wants to talk.” And it was apparent that she was some type of a Down syndrome child and had very difficult time talking her mouth was deformed and I said “Can you say praise the Lord?” And it just came right out of her mouth “Praise the Lord.” She started jumping up and down like a piston and just clapping her hands and tears coming down and she was so embarrassed that she spoke that she covered her face. I mean I want to see that every day.
Sid: Bob you have dreams and visions what about the average believer that’s listen to us right now can they have dreams and visions or if they’re having them can they understand them?
Bob: I absolutely believe that the whole world is about to experience what they’ve never experienced. I went to a recent search engine just to…less than 2 weeks ago there were over 6,280,000 different dreams and visions websites and announcements just on a secular search engine and this is the secular world that’s talking about dreams and vision while, we as the church that should be experiencing the outpouring are really just kind of rejecting it because we’ve seen the pathetic and not the true prophetic. But I believe that the Spirit of the Lord is saying just as he did in Joel that his is the time of the outpouring and it’s pouring out on all flesh, it’s pouring out in the earth, its pouring out in the world. And we need to have somebody that helps us to interpret. I mean Daniel was chosen to help Nebuchadnezzar, Joseph was called to help Pharaoh so their names alone indicate that we need help in the world. The world needs help, the world overseers need Spirit filled believers to see over them.
Sid: What do you mean when you say “A dream or a vision is God’s invitation to a relationship?”
Bob: Well quite simply the dream or the vision is not only God’s invitation but it’s the language of the Spirit that’s calling us and as He gives us that dream or vision we’re answering it back to Him. Jeremiah had that experience with Him and Paul had that experience and that’s what God’s doing in us right now. He’s calling us to a relationship by giving us an invitation to ask Him “What does this mean?”
Sid: And are you finding that when people sit under your teaching they’re able to hear by the Spirit just like you on their own dreams and visions?
Bob: Absolutely the word declares that “He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet receives a prophet’s reward.” And so quite simply that means that you get to see what they see, hear what they hear and speak what they speak, and Israel experienced that with John the Baptist.
Sid RothComments Off on Our Guest Martha Kilpatrick
Sid: My guest right here in the studio is Martha Kilpatrick from Suches, Georgia. For those that were listening yesterday I got a hold of her book just before our “Days of Elijah” conference. I said “This is a must reading for me,” and this is a… you know Martha when God deals with me, I deal with people that’s the way it works. If it’s going to make a profound difference in my life, and by the way and I believe it will, I called you and I told you that. It’s going to make a profound difference in the listeners. Tell me a little bit about your prayer life because you’re really provoking me to jealousy. What time do you get up in the morning normally?
Martha: Anytime from 2 on.
Sid: Why bother going to sleep (laughing)?
Martha: Well I need 3 hours at least but most every night.
Sid: So when you get up that early and you pray till about when?
Martha: Sometimes till about noon, but most of the time till about 8.
Sid: Tell me what your prayer life is like.
Martha: It’s different every day. Its…
Sid: Yeah I like that because if you get into a ritual and a routine then it becomes stinky tradition.
Sid: Yeah it’s not anything that is good and of God can become rote. Isn’t that the history of every move of God’s Spirit?
Sid: It starts out real and then it ends up just emotions.
Martha: Hmm hm. Boxed in. So I say “Lord where are you going this morning and take me with you.” Much in the scriptures and sometimes He will give me the beginning of the writing and I will start writing in those hours, but most of the time it’s just spending time with Him worshiping.
Sid: Tell me about this book “Chariots of Fire?” Tell me about how you wrote that.
Martha: I wrote it from life experience. I was sort of like Elijah and had the assignment of Jezebel and began to recognize it. I began to look to Elijah for the secrets of how to deal with, live with, conquer Jezebel, and searching the Lord. Really the book was written seeking God’s insight into this story in 1 Kings 17 it was as I call it on my knees. It gave me insights that several have said they have never seen, or anywhere else.
Sid: There are a number of books out today on this subject because it’s a subject God is dealing with, but you have made it in such a simplistic fashion that it’s not way out there “Well that’s for someone else.” This is for every single person that reads it.
Martha: Good. I wanted it to be simple and clear.
Sid: Let’s talk about Elijah. What does his name mean?
Martha: His name means Yahweh is God and that was his mission to bring Israel back to God being God, and to the defeat of the worship of Baal and all the Jezebel gods and he did it.
Sid: What is your spin on Malachi the very last chapter where it says “Before the coming of the dreadful day of the Lord Elijah will come?” What does that mean to you?
Martha: I believe it means, and I saw this as I was writing it, that Elijah will come… Elijah always comes to prepare for the coming of the Lord. As the Lord comes near Jezebel does too. Every valid move of God, in every dynamic place where there’s a work of God Jezebel comes to destroy it. The prelude to the coming of the Lord is the rising of the enemies attack, but the counter to that “When the enemy comes in like a flood the Lord shall raise a standard.” The standard in this case is going to be Elijah. I began to see that in this coming of Elijah it’s going to be a corporate outpouring.
Sid: Well we know about the first coming of Elijah, we know from the New Covenant that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, and Elijah was battling the religious system of its day. John the Baptist obviously was battling the religious system of his day that was boxing God in so to speak. So what is this corporate Elijah going to battle?
Martha: It’s going to be… Go prepared Elijah in secret, he had a secret life with God and a very solitary intimate life with God. He just arrived on the scene without any record of his past and declared God’s judgment in drought. I believe God is preparing many people in secret with the tendencies or the characteristics of Chris that appear in Elijah. That they’re going to understand the principality and be able to spot it, be able to name it, discern it, and by experience conquer. I believe somehow the Lord is going to make this a corporate move in the body of Christ. It’s not going to be one person, it’s going to be an understanding that he’s going to pour out, and this is just one book of many that I believe God will give to prepare us. This is the real war, the real war is with God’s enemy.
Sid: Now I’ve heard it said “That the days of the superstar will be finished and it will be this corporate anointing. Yet we live in a day and an age and a day where we have media, and whoever is on radio, whoever is on television is a focal point. Will we still have these? Will still everyone being do the works of the ministry or how do you see this?
Martha: I think it will be the same way, but I believe that Elijah’s… you have to watch how the New Testament remembers the character of the Old Testament. The New Testament distills their life to the essence that God finds valuable. Elijah is not remembered for his fiery defeat of the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel. He is remembered as the quintessential example of answered prayer, not prayer but answered prayer in the book of James. Elijah was a man like us but he prayed and it didn’t rain.
Sid: So we value as what might be important to God is very different than what God values.
Martha: Exactly, exactly we love the sensational but God values the hidden life of prayer. That was thing that God made note of in Elijah in the New Testament as the example, the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. So the ones who are praying and assigned this task of the Elijah mantle it will be done in prayer not on the stage.
Sid: What would you say to the person that says “Well I’m not called to be an intercessor. That’s not my calling, that’s not my thing, that’s for other people I’m a doer.”
Martha: I believe every believer has to face the Jezebel – Ahab issue, and if you’re not a praying believer Satan will write the last chapter of your story. It’s essential.
Sid: My goodness that’s so powerful will you make that statement again?
Martha: If you do not enter the arena of this battle, and I believe every believer has to do it. I write in the book “To fail to climb into your reign of conflict is to lose your chance at divine adventure, not to mention your eternal destiny then Satan will write the final chapter of your story.” It is absolutely essential that individuals in churches, and perhaps even nations face, name, and conquer evil.
Sid: Well in addition to reading the book practicing the principals for someone that has a very sporadic prayer life, you know a little here a little there. What would you recommend? They certainly can start at 2 in the morning and go till noon…
Martha: Oh no I didn’t start there…
Sid: I know that but… tell me what a reasonable starting point is.
Martha: I believe the Biblical mandate is early morning prayer, the manna of the early morning, and you begin with 10 minutes. But it becomes a discipline of life that is like brushing your teeth it’s not a big deal. The more you devote yourself to that discipline…
Sid: I want to get practical.
Sid: Someone’s listening to us that’s being convicted by the Holy Spirit, praise God for you Holy Spirit go do Your job. Okay and they said “I can do that. I can do 10 minutes.” So what should they do?
Martha: Get their Bible, get on their knees, and the first issue I think is worship your God. “Your my God and You’ve chosen me,” then to begin to present the issues of your life to Him. The burdens the things you face and seek Him for the answers. There’s a pattern of staying in the scripture as well…
Sid: And the person that says “Oh I’ve done that, been there, God never answers me, I’m too pragmatic, I’m not going to bother.” Respond.
Martha: Well it’s an evitable defeat and that defeat presses you back to the point of starting again because will put the pressure on you. He wants that intimacy, He wants to pour out His wisdom.
Sid: Okay how will someone benefit that reads and does what you recommend in the book “Elijah the Last Day – Chariot of Fire?”
Martha: How will they benefit in their lives? They will begin to have wisdom, insight, discernment, answers, solutions, direction, the will of God will be opened up and that’s the pursuit of that morning time, His will. When Elijah got to Mount Horab I make the statement that in the center of God’s will is protection. That’s the only place of protection.
Sid: And going back to what God showed you of the war that would hit our nation, way back in ’98. If we don’t have this intimacy now how we going to get it during the hard times?
Martha: That’s why God warns us in advance. He answers before there’s a question and the necessity is to build the relationship as you would any other relationship.
Sid: Give me an example just out of the blue of a housewife that is dealing with a Jezebel or an Ahab spirit, give me an actual example of where could there be a Jezebel spirit in this housewife.
Martha: Okay, I’m thinking of someone, she would be a controller, she would manipulate, use flattery, seduction, if it’s in the woman. She would manipulate the situations to gain what she wanted, she would have the decisions, she’d make all the decisions. The husband would be…
Sid: A wimp.
Martha: …forced to acquiesce, and yes. He would for fear of her rage… a Jezebel is an issue of rage…
Sid: My guest is Mark Virkler and he’s talking about a subject that intrigues me no end because if there’s one thing that most good Christians say is “I wish I could hear God clearly and I would do it but I just can’t hear God’s voice that much.” Well my guest was in a position just like that and he said what God did for him God wants to do for you. In fact he goes so far as to say that if you follow the principals that he’s outlined in his “Hearing God Experience Package” that 100% of true believers that follow his instruction will hear God’s voice. Now Mark that’s a pretty bold statement!
Mark: Well Sid it is a very bold statement but we’ve been teaching those 4 simple keys to hearing God’s voice for 35 years all over the world to all age groups from kids 5 to adults 92 and all of them can hear the voice of God if they’ll do these 4 very simple things.
Sid: Okay, now just because I like it I want you, and I didn’t know it before I looked at my notes, I want you to tell me what happened to me at age 15?
Mark: (Laughing) Well I was laying down one night trying to go to sleep and I had this spontaneous flowing thought going through my mind which would not go away and it was the voice of God even though back then. I didn’t know that spontaneous flowing thoughts were the voice of God; the thought was this “If you die tonight you’re not ready to go into eternity.” And I tried to push it aside it wouldn’t go aside and so I finally got out of bed went downstairs told my parents I want to get saved. And so they took me the pastors home then he talked me through the salvation experience prayed with me. So my salvation experience came out of the voice of God speaking to me one night when I was trying to fall asleep.
Sid: Well I think I’ll top that story I was about 6 or 7 years of age, maybe 6, and Jewish and no understanding that God speaks today and I heard a voice and this is what the voice said to me it was a question. “What happens when you die?” That’s really what started my search to know God so God speaks to even unsaved Jewish people. He even spoke to you Mark.
Mark: Isn’t it amazing, isn’t it amazing?
Sid: And I think about that when I hear your story and that’s why I want you to share. Okay the 11th year of being a believer you come to your senses and you say “God I’m not hearing Your voice. These people in the Bible they hear Your voice seems like a lot of Christians they hear Your voice but I’m not hearing Your voice.” So what did you do about it?
Mark: Well I had another spontaneous thought come to me which as I look back on it I realized that that was the voice of God too. And here’s what was it said “Why don’t you take a year of your life and focus on hearing God’s voice?” Even though I didn’t identify that as the voice of God I said “That’s a good thought” and I said “I’m going to invest the whole next year focused on wanting to hear God’s voice.”
Sid: So you heard God’s voice to take a year to hear God’s voice but you didn’t know that it was God’s voice. I got it. (Laughing) But how could you do that? I mean how were you married at the time, did you have children at the time?
Mark: (Laughing) Yes I was married and I was pasturing a church so I had time for Bible study and so all my Bible study and sermon preparation that year was focused on passages of the Bible that dealt with prayer and hearing God’s voice and seeing visions. And any books I read that year were on prayer and hearing God’s voice and…
Sid: But how does a pastor who is teaching people and loves God not hear God’s voice?
Mark: You know that’s my question Sid it frustrated me to no end that here I am I’m a Spirit filled charismatic pastor pastoring an ordained minister pastoring a charismatic church and I can’t hear the voice of God. And I’m so frustrated I can’t because my worship leader can and he can prophesy and interpret tongues but I can’t prophesy because I can’t hear God voice and I found that an incredibly frustrating 10 years of my Christian life.
Sid: And did you tell anyone that’s what you were going to do; tell your wife that’s what you’re going to do?
Mark: Well, as far as taking a year you mean?
Mark: Yeah, well my wife definitely knew it and I know the elders of my church knew that that was my focus for the year. My preaching that year was pretty much on hearing the voice of God and so I’m sure they were catching the clue that that was my focus for the year because I was passing on to them the things that I was learning.
Sid: Well was there a moment during year that you felt the floodgates finally opened?
Mark: (Laughing) Yeah there sure was. I was awakened early in the morning maybe 5:30 – 6:00 with listen closely with a booming bass voice which was God speaking to me saying “Get up I’m going to teach you to hear my voice.” Now I’ve only heard a booming bass voice only once in…
Sid: Now just out of curiosity before you heard that booming voice were you praying really diligently a lot to hear God’s voice?
Mark: I was probably 6 months into this year where I was focused on hearing God’s voice and it was my earnest heartfelt desire to get a breakthrough. And I really think that when anybody has an earnest heartfelt desire for a breakthrough I think God sees that He hears that, He responds to that and He gives them the breakthrough that’s what I believe.
Sid: What was the other time you heard God’s voice?
Mark: Well as far as hearing it as an audible voice this is the only time I’ve heard it as an audible voice; now the rest of the my life I hear it as a flow of spontaneous thoughts that light upon my mind.
Sid: Okay what did God show you?
Mark: Well that morning I bolted straight up in bed wide awake instantaneously and I was conscious that He just said “I’m going to teach you to hear My voice.” And believe it or not I did this I laid back down and said “Okay teach me.” He said “No, get up and go to your office” which was next store to my house. So I walked on over, I sat down I meditated got into the Lord’s presence worshipped a few moments and he took me to Habakkuk 2:1,2. And showed me how Habakkuk heard the voice of God and the steps he took 4 simple steps and he just laid it out for me and showed me hay do these 4 things.
Sid: When you did these 4 things from that moment how long did it take for you to start hearing God’s voice?
Mark: Well that day I heard God’s voice all day long; I mean I began to write out what God was saying to me and after I’d written for a half hour I went and Patti was up so I took what I’d written to my wife Patti and ask her “What do you feel about this?” And she read it and she said “Well that’s God’s voice,” which excited my faith. So I went back and did it for another 30 minutes and I took it Patti and she said “It’s still God’s voice.” So it excited my faith you know I kept doing it all morning and the afternoon I journaled for an hour at a crack and took it to Patti and she kept saying it was God’s voice. So at the end of the first day of using these four keys I had written for 5 hours God talking to me.
Sid: Okay but here’s my question, I see a lot of people with great miracle healing ministries and they try to teach it to others but some of these others don’t have these great miracles ministries it’s like a gift that God gave you because you prayed and your were seeking God; can everyone do what you do?
Mark: Ah Sid 100% of the world can do this. We have now taught it I mean the book “The Four Keys” have gone out to 250,000 people and they’re all getting it an their writing back and saying “Not only did I get it but I turned around and taught it to my youth group, I taught it to my home group and they all got it and marriages were healed and I’ve got….” We have 100’s of testimonies like this from all over the world; every continent in the world so it works for everybody.
Sid: Okay let me ask you some practical things, you started hearing God’s voice how did that improve your marriage?
Mark: (Laughing) Well the Lord said “Mark love your wife” and I wrote it down “Love my wife.” And I said “Well Lord I’m going to just as soon as I fix her.” And He said “No I didn’t ask you to fix your wife.” And I said “I’m going to as soon as I fix her.” And He said “Mark love your wife.” And He told me 50 times “Love Patti.” And you know I just thought Patti would be happier if she was more like me and I’m more outgoing and I’m more analytical, and I was trying to change her in which so many partners try to do that and it was putting pressure and tension on our relationship. And God said “Mark Patti’s fine the way that I made her; she doesn’t have to be more like you she can be an introvert that’s not going to hurt anything just love her and honor and respect her just the way she is.” So I stopped pressuring Patti.
Sid: It sounds almost like you let go so God could do what He wanted to do. (Laughing)
Mark: Well that’s exactly right and my wife’s response was this she said “My marriage improved greatly when Mark began to hear God’s voice.” And so it just healed our marriage. We’ve had 100’s of people tell us that their marriage has improved tremendously as the Wonderful Counselor began to counsel them concerning each other.
Sid: Okay what about children I have to tell you in today’s society it takes an act of God to have a Biblically normal child today.
Mark: (Laughing) Well you know at that particular year of our life when I learned to hear God’s voice we had taken into our home a girl who was a runaway girl she’d ran away from her home; her parents went to our church and they asked Patti and I if we would take her into our home. And we did and she was breaking all of the household rules, she was acting very rebellious and I was very frustrated and I grew up in a an authoritative home and so I figured the best way you handle rebellion is you confront the person you ring the riot act and you give them the rules and I was going to do that and as I journaled about this girl the Lord spoke this He said “She’s very insecure.” And I said “Really, I thought she was rebellious.” And the next thought that that came is that “I needed to express unconditional love to her.” And I said “Really I just want to read her the riot act and give her some rules” and I thought about what the Lord was saying and I thought “You know if I were run away teenage girl I would be scared and insecure and I would cover that up with a facade of rebellion.” So do I minister to her façade of rebellion or do I minister to her broken heart of insecurity? And of course that’s easy to answer you minister to the heart issue not the outer facades. So when she came home from school and instead of reading her the riot act I just spent an hour kind of hugging her basically not literally but we just spent time sharing together her life, my life and the fruit was good she came to church every Sunday for the next year. And I said “That’s better fruit than if I sat there and confront her.”
Sid: Tell me about and this is interesting, tell me about the laughing Jesus.
Mark: (Laughing) You know when I began to use the eyes in my heart and look for Jesus He appeared; He just appeared laughing, laughing, laughing uproariously that’s what He was doing.” He said “Mark lighten up I’ve got it under control,” and I was so uptight and I was grunting so hard and I was so religious and I was so afraid God was mad at me and to see Him there laughing all the time and telling me “Mark start laughing it’ll heal you.” And so I did you know humor is central to my delivery style when I teach now and people laugh and they love the style.
Sid: You mean previous to this you didn’t even use this at all in messages laughter.
Mark: I was didactic; I was the didactic lineal teacher and there was no emotion I’d cut all emotion off because I was taught emotion was soulish and laughter of course was part of the emotions so I was just you know a robot for Jesus. And you know just before we did this interview I Googl’d the phrase “Laughing Jesus” and it took me straight to the picture that I have on my wall which I purchased probably 25 years ago, an artist rendition of the laughing Jesus; which is exactly the picture that I saw when I was looking for provision, exactly the same picture. And this artist is still selling that exact picture so anyone can go there and see what I will see.
Sid: Now you go… help me out here, according to my notes you go to the throne room whenever you want to. Do you really do that?
Mark: Well why wouldn’t we…
Sid: You know I think that anyone would want to but how do you do it? (Laughing)
Mark: How do I do it? It’s very simple when I’m in a worship session and I’m in church worshipping or I’m worshipping on my own, it makes no difference. I just take my imagination and I picture Revelation 4 where John walks through this door he walks into the throne room he sees multitudes of people worshipping before the throne. And there’s big noise and the throne rooms there and I say “Why not do that?” So I do that, it’s Biblical, it’s probably imagination. So I would picture that scene and I would say “Holy Spirit will you take it over?” And I tune to the flow of the Holy Spirit and here He comes in the flow and the scene in my mind comes alive and people are dancing and people are worshipping and whatever I see them doing in the throne room I just join in and do it with them. And so I’m just using the eyes of my heart as part of my worship experience.
Sid: Can you tell me one visitation to the throne room that had a very impactful thing in your life?
Mark: Well I’m going to share one from my wife Patti if that’s okay.
Mark: And this was an experience that healed some real pain and some real grief in her heart. Her mother…
Sid: Are you telling me that from hearing God you can heal the pain in your heart?
Mark: Oh absolutely, absolutely He’s the Wonderful Counselor He heals us up. And Patti’s mom had died 3 years ago a very painful disease she had lost her mind, she couldn’t remember her children’s name; she couldn’t remember Patti’s name and she was shriveled up maybe 87 pounds in a bed in a nursing home and that’s the last picture in Patti’s mind of her mom. And her mom was a noble, beautiful wonderful lady and the last picture she’s shriveled up in pain and lost her mind. Well she asked the Lord “Would You show…would you heal this for me?” And within 3 days before the funeral the Lord gave her a vision of the throne of heaven and she saw her mom dancing in a field with her dad who had died a few years earlier and they were together in the prime of their life. He had a full head of head; she had the biggest smile on her face that Patti had ever seen on her mom’s face and they were dancing together in a beautiful field in Heaven. And it healed all of the pain and all of the agony in Patti’s heart. Because as long as she looked at the new picture she knew that was the true reality of where her mom was at, and the other picture was the false reality. Patti said “Whenever you share this story make sure to tell people that when God gives you a new picture you need to choose to look at the new picture all the time so that you stay healed and not go back to the old picture and reintroduce the pain again.”
Sid: ….Why is it so important to write it down Mark?
Mark: When a person became a king in the land of Israel God said “The first thing I want you to do is to write out your own personal copy of the Pentateuch.” So God thinks that part of learner is to get your pen out and write because when it comes out through your pen and your own hand it’s a much deeper experience when it doesn’t. So we encourage writing all of the time.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to feel God’s heart in reference to the Jewish people and Israel. And I have on the telephone Jim Goll I’ve got a copy of his book which I personally endorsed on the cover it’s called “Exodus Cry.” And this book if you do not have a Jewish heart at this time in history it’s dangerous. I can tell you you’ll get it from reading this book. Now on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about a prophetic word that Jim heard about the coming persecution of Jewish people in particular Russian Jews. And 6 weeks later Cindy Jacobs in England without knowing this had the identical type of word perhaps even stronger. And then the Prophetic Counsel led by Dr. Peter Wagner summarized these prophetic words as to what the prophets see coming. Jim would you tell me basically what that summary statement was?
Jim: I’d be glad to. It was 6 months later then we were ate the World Prayer Movement gathering the World Congress on intercession in Colorado Springs. You know the scriptures say that God will confirm His word by the witnesses of 2 or 3 and here you had the audible voice that came from me that you mentioned the Lord gave me; you have the prophetic encounter that you had from Cindy Jacobs. And then we had this convergence of many different prophetic voices coming together and Dr. Peter Wagner then and this prospective Messiologist, then summated this to where he basically stated gave a strong warning the last night of this convocation. The fear of the Lord came into the room; the intensity the presence of God was just like as they say it was so thick that you could cut it with a knife. And Peter Wagner warned that anti-Semitism in Russia and other nations would soon escalate to the point where it would require an immediate response from the church in prayer to help open a window of escape for those that feel called to leave and protection for those who are called to stay. And then we went into intense intercession as a result of that. And it was like a time bomb went off in our midst and this crisis intervention and explosion of intercession really blew across the room.
Sid: You know what I find interesting is I have just last month got a hold of the latest statistics from the Anti-Defamation League that anti-Semitism is accelerating since 9/11 dramatically in the United States of all places.
Jim: Yeah let me say something about that it brings me to another encounter and it was the morning of 9/11. I was not aware of what had happened and the Holy Spirit comes to me again the morning of 9/11 and says to me “The hunters have just been released.” I didn’t know what that was about then I go and turn on the television and I see as everyone else did the crashing of the Twin Towers. And I just want to say that that itself was an act of the demonic anti-Semitism demonic powers of darkness that were unleashed at that time. And those were hunters themselves New York City being the largest Jewish city in the world and the hunters…that was an act of the hunters being released at that hour.
Sid: Now what we’re referring to Mishpochah is something being written 1000’s of years ago by the Jewish prophet Jeremiah.
Sid: And you might want to turn to that I’m going to be reading that from the 16th chapter of Jeremiah verse 14 through 16. Let me read this right now:
“Therefore behold the days are coming declares the Lord when it shall no longer be said as the lives that brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt but as the Lord lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the north country and out of all of the countries where He has driven them for I will bring them back to their own land that I gave to their fathers.” Then the 16 verse tell how “Behold I’m sending from many fishers declares the Lord and they shall catch them and afterwards and afterwards I will send for many hunters and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill and out of the clefts of the rocks.”
Now Jim explain what I just read; who are the fisher, who are hunters? What is the prophet saying?
Jim: Yes as in much of prophesy there is multiple layers of fulfillment of it. And so throughout different periods of time of history there have been waves of fisherman followed by waves of hunters. So let’s try to define the word fisherman. Those are those who go before; we would use today in the New Testament terminology a for runner anointing like John the Baptist who goes away and tries to blow a trumpet, release a warning and prepares the way to awaken the people to respond to the word of the Lord or to God. And in this case the fisherman like say in the 1800’s well it could have been Theodore Herzl with the first Zionist World Congress who call forth the land for the Jewish people to go to that was held in Basel, Switzerland. Or perhaps they could be like Joseph Rabinowitz that was a forerunner again again in the late 1800’s and I was in this very land of Kishinev, Moldavia where it becomes awakened and sees Yeshua as his Messiah and he becomes a forerunner. He calls for and 40 ultraorthodox Jewish families become completed Jews and they began what was the Israelites of the New Covenant. So we have fishers that go before. A lot of this today is the prayer movement that was going before and speaking but then on the heels of those who do not come forth volunteering, then comes the hunters. In Russian history it’s the pogroms. And of course in the German history and European history it’s the Holocaust. In the earlier it’s the Spanish and Portages Inquisition where they’re hunted down literally killed, slaughtered today again in this generation. Fishermen are being raised up blowing trumpets of warnings, trumpets of preparation but on the heels the hunters once again are being released.
Sid: You know some of the history you have in the book few Christians have ever seen this because what the devil did in the name of institutional Christianity, in the name of secret symbols like the cross, the worst atrocities have occurred to Jewish people in all history. For instance I’ve been reading a little lately on the Spanish Inquisition tell me a little bit about that.
Jim: You know that was another thing I stumble into things somehow and by God’s grace so maybe some of you out there listening will relate to me because I literally just stumble into truth and revelation. And in this whole period of time you see and even the founding was the new world. This is right in the period of time in the Spanish Inquisition; the Jews were either forced to convert to quote quote I’m going to call it religious churchianity. I don’t even want to call it Christianity.
Sid: Really it’s a semantical problem because even this fellow Constantine in around the 300’s…
Sid: …AD he changed Christianity from a vital intimacy with the living God through Jesus the King of the Jews to an institutional dry dead political machine.
Jim: And that is the problem and that’s why also so many Jewish people it’s hard for them to see that Jesus Yeshua is the Messiah. Part of it is because of the churches stains and spots in our history. And so we have put roadblocks in the way and somehow we need to become enlightened, we need to become humble, we need to become truth bearers. We need to own up to the truth and we need to see that much of the church is laden with the political spirit and we need to act in the opposite of this.
Sid: Tell me a bit about what you found out in reference to the Spanish Inquisition for instance, I was amazed I’ve never know this before about the 3 influential Spanish Jews that literally underwrote Columbus’s voyage in return for an agreement.
Jim: Yes, this is all very fascinating you know by reading; I dove myself, I read 20 at least books for preparation for writing of this book at least 20 books. And I found that there was the funding of Christopher Columbus into the New World; this in part I’m not saying it’s a totality in part was to find a place of refuge for these Jews could flee to. The term that’s used today is the Sephardic Jews.
Sid: Which is another word for Spanish Jews.
Jim: Yes for Spanish Jews who and then today the names have been altered; the names could be Hernandez, Sanchez or something like this. And they had to flee for their lives because of this persecution. And again just say Teresa of Avila that is written up in church history I have been reading about her life and I have found that she was actually Jewish in her background but like many people it was hidden. They would change their names so as to hide their Jewish identity or it’s because they either were forced to be killed if they claimed their identity or they were forced to be baptized. Baptized into what? Baptized into a political religious system but the thing is Jesus is not this Jesus is a living reality, Jesus is a personal God who loves us and He wants you to know Him in a personal way. So whether we’re dealing with the church history, the Spanish Inquisition or many other things I just want to make sure that one thing is solid and put in all of our minds. Listen Jesus is good, God is good we have a heavenly Father and He loves you and He wants our eyes to become enlightened to the past so as by God’s grace not to continue to fulfill some of this bad history.