Sid: We want everyone everywhere to get excited; I mean if you realized what God did in your life how you were heading to a place called hell, that there was no hope. You were helpless; you were hopeless. I don’t care what’s going on in your life right now I tell you if that was all God did was to pull you by your straps out of landing up for eternity with no chance of reversal from Hell you have enough to rejoice in God for the rest of your life. But the truth of the matter is all authority has been given to the Messiah and we have been given power of attorney. My guest in the studio is Jose Santana and he’s a prophet from the Rochester, New York area. I’m very very impressed with the accuracy of his prophesies. I was reading this morning in the Gospel of Matthew 18:18 and this my spin on what I read, it says “Whatever you bind of Earth will be bound in Heaven.” But in studying in the Greek this is what it means “Whatever in the Name of Jesus you unchain on earth has already been unchained in Heaven.” So if you have insight into what is being unchained in Heaven. And the Word of God gave you as much insight as you need then you’re the enforcer. And whatever you chain on earth has already been chained in Heaven. In other words, if I see something evil like cancer, I can chain it; I can put it in chains because it already happened in Heaven. I know this from the Bible; I can tell you tell you’re getting excited you jump off on that.
Jose: Yeah, I marvel like we go to some meetings and I see the Holy Spirit coming in and He looks just like a cloud and He’s touching people but He doesn’t touch everybody. So I asked the other day “Lord, how come You don’t touch them all so people’s life will be changed.” He said “I’m the Lord thy God that looks at the heart.” So a lot of times people receive miracles because I believe the heart has been properly positioned, broken, bruised or whatever you want to call it but the heart is right before God and God could just touch them and they receive. There are other people full of pride and arrogance or whatever and the Holy Ghost just pass them by.
Sid: Now sometimes nonbelievers are healed which causes them to become believers is that the exception?
Jose: I believe that it is always an issue of the heart. We have remember in the Bible the widow that Elijah was sent to her and he took care. Jesus said “There was many other widows at that time but how come only her?” I believe because her heart was right with God.
Sid: Jose I believe that if you tell the people about the love of God that you experienced when you were taken to Heaven when you felt God forgave you but you didn’t forgive yourself. That’s what it was and there’s no way He could have love you that much; describe the love that you felt.
Jose: My Lord, the word says “Blessed is the man that God has forgiven his sin who’s record is clear” in the Psalms. And that’s what took place with me; my carnal mind couldn’t comprehend the love of Jesus Christ that surpasses all understanding. When I received the revelation of God I became a righteous man I became a holy man of God because of what He did for me in Calvary. That’s to any of you that are listening today you must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God. John 3:3 declares that. It is just by faith and trusting in Jesus as you Savior that you receive the peace of God that surpasses all understanding. And that’s the encounter that I had with the Lord in my life changed. And if He could change my life I guarantee you that He could change yours too.
Sid: Explain the love that you felt from the Messiah in Heaven. Explain that if you can.
Jose: The only way that I can explain that to you is this; if you like a piece of steak this is better than the steak. If you have a love encounter and I could say a sexual relationship it’s much better than that. If you are one that likes to dress very good it’s better than dressing good. It blows your mind; it is the peace of God that takes over your whole body, your soul; everything becomes renewed and you are a new creature in Christ. That’s what I’ve experienced; it’s better than any drug that you could do; it’s better than any car that you could drive; any fame; any hotel it’s all of this is nothing compared with the love of Jesus Christ. That’s what I experienced when He touched my life.
Sid: Left field question, “Why are so many real born again Christians getting divorced? Why has marriage become cheap? Why have the vows become cheap?
Jose: Because they have opened the heart. It’s all an issue of the heart. For instance, if a Delilah spirit jumped before me and flashes me and I truly have the love of God and the fear of God in my heart I’m not going to yield to that sin to that pleasure because my wife satisfy me in all her doing. Because I love the Lord Jesus He makes my wife as a second skin so I don’t have to go to her.
Sid: But why does it seem to be almost an acceptable sin today?
Jose: Because people are not walking close to God. You see the Bible says “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.” They do not operate in the fear of God I’m sorry to tell you.
Sid: You know it’s almost as if Hollywood has invaded the church.
Jose: That’s true, I’ve seen that left and right and then they excuse it they say “The devil made me do it.” I say “No, no you yield some connection in your heart with that sin; you’re connected between your heart and the sinful desire and you yield.” Versus if you submit to God and he will flee.” So there is no excuse why people are yielding to them temptations.
Sid: Jose you just received something from God.
Jose: Yes, I hear the voice of the Holy Spirit saying that there’s a lot of people out there that they want the gifting’s and the forefront of the church but it’s for the wrong motive. The Word of the Lord declares that the greatest of all must be a servant of all. So whatever gift whether it’s prophet, teacher, evangelist, or the fivefold we must know and operate in servant hood, humility, because the Lord our God He wants us to operate in the humility and the gifting’s and the humility that He has placed upon us. If I’m a prophet in the local church my main job is to warn and blow the trumpet when harm is coming to that local church. Not just to say that I could prophesy, that is okay but the main thing is to cover the leadership and protect them through the word of God that revelation comes to me. Not to just bring attention to myself and to give; that to me is childishness.
Sid: You weren’t talking about this but you sparked something in me when you said that. Motive is so important; there are people today that have been trained unfortunately by a lot of many Christian television shows and radio shows that if your give your will get. The motivation is to get things so that you can have things in your life rather than the Kingdom. There’s something out of kilter; I had a letter the other day and it said “Sid is it true that if I send an offering to a specific ministry I can believe God for a new car and He’ll give it to me?” And it’s… there is truth to the law of sowing and reaping. In our ministry we practice Genesis 12:3 “God says himself, I’ll bless those that bless the Jewish people.” But if you’re giving money to get rather than giving money for the Kingdom… Isn’t that what you were talking about on the gifts?
Jose: I have prophesied so many automobiles for people I have not even asked them for a penny, I don’t dare prostitute the gift that God has given me. Freely I have received; freely I give because it is all about His Kingdom.
Sid: I believe that we’re living in a period of time right now and I’m curious if God’s showing this. But it’s the age of Ananias and Sapphira; those that it appeared were getting away with sin in the church I pray to God that they’ll be exposed…
Jose: My Lord.
Sid: in Jesus Name. So that they can repent and get right because if they’re not exposed in this life there is no hope when they die. It’s not one saved always saved. It’s being saved and being grateful for your whole life. And if you stumble repent and repentance is a change of behavior not playing games.
Jose: That’s right; the Bible says to walk your salvation with fear and trembling. x
Sid: I picture people dropping dead in churches as the presence… as God draws nearer to earth, those that are in sin in the church it will be the worst experience that they’ve ever had.
Sid: Now I have a question for you the book of Revelation if I was to ask you do you understand it what would there answer be? And yet so many their answer is “No.” And some even worse I’ve given up; I just can’t understand it. I’m too practical; I’m too pragmatic. And then others even say “It’s already finished it’s already happened” so these are people that are called preterits and that it’s in the past. The book actually says there is a horrific curse with those that tamper with this book and every… I mean your name will be taken out of the book of life if you remove words from this. And then, this book of Revelation actually says “There is a blessing in reading and hearing the words of the book of Revelation.” And so I have my good friend Perry Stone on the phone. Perry says that he has invested listen to this it’s really mind blowing to me 80,000 hours in researching the Bible. I want to get some answers because I believe what the Bible says Perry. I believe that this book, that there’s a blessing attached to understanding it; what is your understanding?
Perry: Sid first of all thank you for having me on the program I’m looking forward to this I believe it’s going to really help the people. The book of Revelation as you said has a blessing placed upon it for those that read in here. But the difficulty that people have in dealing with the book is the symbolism that’s used. For example there’s a woman travailing in Heaven with a child. In chapter 12 there’s this dragon in in the heavens, a great red dragon in chapter 12. There’s a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns. And so in what is called apocalyptic literature and apocalyptic literature is in our case Biblical literature that predicts the future through symbolism. It uses what we call Biblical symbols. The book of Daniel they say chapter 7 uses it; the metallic image of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Each metal in Daniel Chapter 2 of that image represents a prophetic empire. So one of the first things I’ve learned is that Bible always interprets itself when it comes to symbolism. For example, we know that when Satan came into the garden he used a serpent. So throughout the Bible a serpent represents either sin or it represents Satan; it represents disobedience or evil. A lamb for example the first example of the lamb in a major sense was the word was the Passover where the lamb’s blood was offered. So throughout the Bible we come to the New Testament Jesus is introduced to John the Baptist as the Lamb of God. And then in the book of Revelation the word Lamb is mentioned 27 times. And all but one time it has reference to Jesus Christ. Throughout the book it makes that clear. So the reason people doesn’t study it many times is because the symbolism is a little difficult. But however the Bible itself interprets its own symbolism. And so I would call it the basic 101 understanding of the book of Revelation. But the biggest thing that we encounter when we talk about the book of Revelation is the various interpretations that have come down from history as to…
Sid: Yeah, yeah I pick up some Bibles and they have 4 different views, and I’m saying if these experts don’t know “How can I possibly know?”
Perry: That is such a good question it really is. Well, let me just run through this real quick for people’s knowledge; and that is that some of the beliefs. First of all there is the preterist that believe that the end-time prophecies were all fulfilled in the first century. There’s some very good people that believe the historical interpretation that believe that from the first century until the return of Christ the book of Revelation has gradually been fulfilled. A few people talk about the allegorical interpretation simply saying “Well the Book of Revelation is just an allegory between the Heavenly Jerusalem; the earthly battle for the earthly Jerusalem; good evil God and Satan.” My staff will tell you I have studied this every angle. I’ve studied the preterist, historical, allegorical, the all millennialist, and the best…
Sid: Perry, I watch you on television, that’s number 1, and number 2 if you didn’t tell me that you studied 80,000 hours I would know that you did just by listening to you but go ahead. (Laughing)
Perry: Well, the reason I’m saying that is because I just don’t study what I believe which is the book of Revelation from Chapter 4 to 22 is future. I don’t just don’t say that off the top of my head. I say it because I have delved into all of the other beliefs. And honestly if you don’t interpret the book of Revelation from chapter 4 to 22 as a future event all the other theories start falling apart. Whether it’s historical, the preterist, the allegorical interpretations inside the book. Let me give you an example here. The book of Revelation alludes to in the judgments and in certain passages it alludes to in the Old Testament so many sometimes it’s even difficult to count. So the Old Testament prophets that predicted how the sun would be darkened; how they predicted how the rivers would dry up. You see that prophetic statement that the prophet made in the Old Testament being fulfilled in the book of Revelation.
Sid: Yes, but many would say “But it was fulfilled way before and it’s not a future event.”
Perry: Let’s talk about one group here.
Perry: I think this group needs to be talked about, they’re called the Preterist. Now here is the basic teaching of a preterist. The preterist teaches that the book of Revelation has already been fulfilled, and Matthew 24 all those signs mentioned there up to the sign of the Son of Man appearing has already been fulfilled. And it was fulfilled around the year 70 AD at the destruction of the temple. First of all let’s talk about where they get the idea from of the fulfillment. Jesus made 1 statement in which He said to His disciples “There are some of you standing here that shall not taste death until you Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.” Well, you read after the resurrection of Jesus in John 21 that they were at the Sea of Galilee at Tiberias. And Jesus predicts to Peter that he’s going to be an old man and Peter says “Well, what about John?” And Jesus said concerning John in our Bible “What is it to you Peter if He’s still alive when I come?” And the next verse says “When this saying went about among the disciples that that disciple should not die.” And Jesus did not say “He would not die; what it He tarries until I come.” Now it is clear from that verse that the early church considered John the Apostle a link to the return of the Lord. So here’s what the preterist have done, they have said “Okay according to Jesus the Kingdom will come when John is still living.” John died in about 96 to 100 AD therefore Jesus had to return before the death of Apostle John. They used those 2 verses; now here’s what Jesus in reality was saying Sid it’s very simple. John the author of the book of Revelation he did not die he was the last of twelve original apostles he outlived all of them. Most of the apostles were dead by 70 AD with the exception of possibly two and John was one of them. John lived up until 95 AD and on the Isle of Patmos he wrote the book of Revelation. He saw the New Jerusalem that nobody in the Old Testament saw; he saw the white throne of judgment and the details of it that nobody else in the Old Testament saw. He saw the Lord coming back as King of kings and Lord of Lords on a white horse that nobody in the Old Testament saw. He saw the kingdom; he did not die until he saw the Kingdom. And so when Jesus was saying this he was alluding to John not dying until he saw the vision of revelation. But John did not know that was going to happen and that was the fulfillment of that verse. He did not die until he saw the kingdom but the preterist take that verse to say “John was still living in 70 AD therefore the book of Revelation had to be written before the year 70 AD. Thus Matthew 24 all of those signs of the coming of the Lord had to be fulfilled by 70 AD. Thus the book of Revelation had to be fulfilled by 70 AD. Now here’s how you totally destroy the preterist doctrine. They admit this; if they will admit it they will admit this. And that is when the book of Revelation was written. Every preterist that I’ve studied after says the book of Revelation was written between 66 to 70 AD before the destruction of the Temple. That way they force this fulfillment of Matthew about there’s earthquakes, famines and pestilence and they will talk about the great famine that hit Judea. They’ll talk about a earthquake that hit Israel; they’ll talk about the pestilence that broke out with the famine; they’ll talk about Josephus when he talked about the cosmic signs that occurred in the Heavens. The star appeared like a sword and comet was seen for one year. Josephus talks about that happening before the year 70; so they take all these things combining them together. And they tell people this is already fulfilled. Why are you looking for a rapture there is not going to be one. Why are you looking for God to restore Israel Israel has no significance because the church has replaced Israel. And they get into all this false teaching; and it is false teaching, because they put the book of Revelation as being written in the year 66 to year 69 – 70 AD. Here’s the problem, the emperor, and history bears this out. The early fathers bear this out that the mission was the Emperor at the time that John was arrested. The Emperor of the mission is the one that arrested John put him in Rome to boil him in oil. John did not die; an early father wrote about that. They then sent John to Isle of Patmos where they thought he was going to die there; he didn’t die. On the Isle of Patmos in approximately 95 AD, 25 years after, the year of destruction the temple is when John saw the book of Revelation and the vision of the Apocalypse. Now what happens is when that historical fact and it is not a speculation it can be proven in historical writings but when John writes this vision in 95 AD. He did not die until he saw the Kingdom number 1. And number 2 it blows away the preterist doctrine say everything has already been fulfilled in 70 AD.
Sid: Perry we’re out of time we’ll pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast. But if God Himself says there is a blessing for hearing the words in the book of Revelation. And you would lose your very salvation if you tamper with this book. It’s an end time book; and I want you to have the best teacher I know who will totally demystify the book of Revelation I promise you.
Sid: I believe this is God’s strategic time for you to start doing the works of Jesus. It’s no longer the pastor, or the evangelist, or the teacher as the superstar. It’s thee Superstar His name is Yeshua Jesus empowering you. Now I have Pastor Bill Johnson on the telephone I’m speaking to him at his office in Redding, California where he is Senior Pastor of Bethel Church. And you make a statement in your book Bill that “Satan is empowered through man’s agreement” explain that.
Bill: Satan could not come into the Garden, the Garden of Eden, and possess Adam and Eve. The only thing that he could do is talk until they came into agreement. When they came into agreement of course they partook of the forbidden fruit and the enemy was empowered to take that place of dominion they had and use that dominion over a planet to keep it in darkness. And it happens today, when people make agreement, when I fall into fear and shame, guilt any of those things all that is my agreement with the enemy. He brings and accusation my way; I agree with him when I do it I empower him to kill, still and destroy in my life.
Sid: Bill, Jesus walked in tremendous authority, tremendous power and you say that many Christians understand the power of God but they don’t understand the authority of God. What do you mean by that?
Bill: Jesus in Luke 9 verse 1 said that “He gave His disciples both power and authority over sickness, disease and over devils.” And what I mean when I say “We move by power” most of us that work in miracles know how to recognize the move of the Spirit in a meeting and move with Him. I like to describe it as catching a wave, catching the wave of the Spirit of God in a certain setting that brings about miracles. And it’s essential that we learn how to recognize the move of God and move with Him instead of trying to force Him to move with us. But there’s another aspect of ministry and that’s the realm of authority. When you’re in a shopping mall or you’re down at the park and you’re at some of these public places you don’t sense the Spirit of God moving; there’s no worship team; there’s nobody directing a meeting where power of God is moving a certain direction. You are there as a representative of the Kingdom of God. You are there as an ambassador of another world representing the King and His Kingdom. And out of that position that’s where we have to learn how to move out of authority. Instead of catching the wave we are creating the wave. God gives us a certain measure of responsibility to actually initiate something because of who He has made us to be. A good example, a young man is down at the park with his grandmom at kind of a church picnic. There’s a woman there on a walker she has cancer from the waist down; she’s going in for surgery the next day. And he says “How about if I pray for you and she says “I don’t believe in healing but you can pray for the doctors.” And he says “How about if we just see what God wants to do?” And she says “Fine but I don’t pray for healing.” So he prays for her when he through she says “I don’t believe in healing because he had prayed some prayer of faith.” She went to the doctor the next day and the pre-surgery examination the doctor said “I don’t know how to tell you this but you don’t have cancer anymore.” There was no wave to catch in that moment; all he did was move out of the authority of who God made him to be and it brought a miracle to destroy cancer in her body.
Sid: Well as far as the authority goes it’s a question of understanding this and I believe in your book you’ve done a brilliant teaching on understanding authority. And there is an anointing on what you’ve written “When Heaven Invades Earth.” I image that a lot of this came from teaching in your school of the supernatural and ministering yourself over the years.
Bill: Yes, absolutely.
Sid: Is this your first book?
Bill: Yes, it is.
Sid: How come you waiting so long to do a book?
Bill: (Laughing) I don’t know it took me awhile to get that one done.
Sid: Well, it’s well worth reading.
Sid: For instance a lot of people that have written about what your book is like I’ve interviewed Todd Bentley who moves in tremendous signs and wonders. This is what he says about your book. “I’ve read many books on healing and miracles. This book is more than just healing information it contains revelatory teaching and keys to living in the supernatural. I believe this book contains some hidden truths and revelation being shared in these last days a must for those wanting to receive and minister a Kingdom of power, healing, signs and wonders.” Tell me where worship fits into this whole mix Bill.
Bill: You know our experience in worship started about 30 years ago. My dad began to teach on the priority of ministry to God. And I can tell you that is really where it all began because in worship is where you discover His manifest presence more clearly than anywhere else. And in that’s how you get to become familiar with the anointing, with the presence of God. How to move with God what His heartbeat is for people. The presence of God is the greatest gift that we have and He inhabits the praises of His people. We have this encounter with His presence in worship that we don’t have anywhere else. So worship is really where all of this started for us is becoming acquainted with the presence of power of God in worship. The only natural overflow is to see healing and deliverance and salvation to lost people. All of that is the overflow of a real recognition of His presence.
Sid: Now you make a big deal in your book, in fact I’ll quote from it, you say “Any gospel that doesn’t work in the marketplace doesn’t work.”
Sid: We think of Benny Hinn and his miracle crusades.
Sid: But as I read the Bible there weren’t these giant miracle crusades, Jesus had them, but they were in the highways and byways going to the people that wouldn’t come to the miracle crusades.
Bill: Yes, I love the Benny Hinn’s of this world and what they are doing and they really help to raise an awareness of what God intends to do with everyone. But it’s got to work out on the streets and so that’s what we go after. We don’t have dorms for our students we plant them in homes all around the city so that we can invade the neighborhood so we can invade the shopping malls, the coffee shops. We have tremendous displays of signs and wonders right out in public places. In fact, I think that we have more people being healed in public than in church. And we have a lot of people healed in church.
Sid: Give me some examples of people that are healed in public places. You’re students actually go… tell me the truth now do they really go to bridges and look under them to see if there are some homeless people that they can pray for?
Bill: Yeah, they’ll get a word of knowledge God will say “There’s somebody under such and such a bridge that you need to pray for.” So they’ll go looking for them. A couple of young men are sitting in a house and the Lord says to them “Somebody needs a miracle at Starbucks.” So they drive down there, they sit outside on the tables and they’ll just wait and a few minutes later a guy comes up on crutches it happens to be a star athlete in town. He had a very serious accident with his lower back tailbone leg area. And two guys went over and asked him if they could pray for him. They did and he absolutely went ballistic he sprinted and ran around the parking lot jumping and just making a scene because he was so stunned over his miracle. And right there in a public place and he is the one who is letting the whole world know so to speak that God healed him down at a coffee shop. And it was just a couple of young men sitting at home and the Lord spoke to them and said “There’s someone who needs a miracle at Starbucks.”
Sid: Listen, there’s someone right now who needs a miracle that’s listening to us and I believe that you can move in the authority God has given you in the name of Jesus and pray for them to be healed. Would you do that Bill?
Bill: I would love to. We see enormous amounts of people healed from automobile accidents that have suffered for 10, 20 and 30 years. So let me start with that, Father, I pray first in the Name of the Lord Jesus that You would release an anointing that breaks the yoke. We stand against the spirit of infirmity and affliction that torments people’s bodies now in Jesus Name. I’m asking Lord that You would touch people that have been afflicted 10, 20, 30 years because of accidents and that bones would be healed. They would be reset, the muscles would be reattached, that the spirit of infirmity that has abstained that accident would be broken now in the name of Jesus. For arthritis, for all of the conditions; the digestive issues; the torment in the stomach area; the colon diseases the colitis and Crohn’s disease I stand against that infirmity in the Name of Jesus. And I rebuke cancer, I rebuke cancer we refuse to stand in intimidation over what the Goliath of the medical community. And we say cancer we rebuke you in Jesus name. I command rebellious cells to be destroyed and for there to be a creative miracle in the name of Jesus. Lord open blind eyes, let eyes be open, let them be restored. For death ears, deaf and dumb spirit I stand against you in Jesus name. And declare the healing word into the ears of people. God I just ask for an anointing not only for healing, but that you would actually restore people’s hearts of confidence to be able to pursue You the God of the impossible once again. That people would learn to cry out and to trust You and just to step into that place of risk, just making room for You to show up and do what You do. You’re the extravagant Father, You’re the great lover of our souls so I ask for courage; the anointing for courage to come upon the Body of Christ in Jesus Name.
Sid: Thank you so much Bill Johnson. Mishpochah you feel that anointing on his prayer. That whole book is filled with that anointing “When Heaven Invades Earth.”
Sid: Now one of the tools that has crossed my hands that I saw a few years ago, but I’ve just started to get into it very deep is a New Testament. It’s called “The Power New Testament.” And this is a very very unique translation of the New Testament. I have the translator on the phone, William Morford. Some of the things that makes this unique is the Bill has studied the Jewish Roots of the faith. I happen to believe, and Bill and I were discussing this, that if we go back to what some people consider sacred you know the language that Jesus spoke King James. And of course we know that He didn’t even speak English let alone King James. Bill there was really an anti-Jewish prejudice in the translators of the King James and way even before that of course because that’s where the church was. But even some of the modern translations because of this Jewish prejudice have really missed some important things in the New Testament. As a Greek scholar, as someone that’s studied the Jewish Roots, studied Hebrew from as far as I’m concerned the best Jewish Rabbi on the face of this earth to study this from. Are you frustrated when you read some of these modern translations including the King James?
Bill: Well, I don’t read them anymore.
Sid: (Laughing) So you’re not frustrated anymore.
Bill: I’ve done right so I haven’t read others for oh my goodness must be 10 years because I read the Greek text while I was translating my first addition. And it was very frustrating to read other translations and see things that were incorrect. It just missed the point that the author of the New Testament was trying to make.
Sid: And I have to say something Bill and you obviously you can’t say this and I’m going to say this. I believe that you had supernatural help in this translation. There’s something so riveting it’s almost like I’m reading the Bible for the first time.
Bill: Well it was I prayed every day before working on the translation and it was something that I did personally because I was driven to do it. I know that the Lord appointed me for it. So everything was done in prayer and I had really superior reference books to use and excellent advisers to help me through some of the most difficult passages.
Sid: Now going back to the beginning the average Christian, and you made a serious commitment to the Lord at age 17 coming from a Baptist background does not study Greek? Why did you?
Bill: (Laughing) It was unusual; there was a member in our church who had just come back from the mission field in Zambia. And he had his PhD in Greek and he taught Zambian natives to read the Greek text and sent them out into the field and here we have American seminaries that have stopped requiring Greek because it’s too difficult and here he had the natives in the bush that he taught to read Greek. It’s just awesome. But anyway he was in the church and just offered to teach me and anyone else that was interested in learning Greek. So there was two of us that started and then within a month or so the other one dropped off and he and I had really precious time together as he tutored me personally for over 2 years.
Sid: Then you determined to really learn Greek by translating the scriptures and after 7 years of this the Lord spoke to you about doing something. What did He say?
Bill: “Get serious it’s time to really get serious and do a translation.” And to me that was a frightening prospect because taking on scripture is something that each of us has to take very, very seriously.
Sid: Now in retrospect I see why God told you to do this this is a unique translation. However at the time I think I might have said “God what do you need another translation of Your Bible for?
Bill: Well, I knew that; because there were so many things in it that angered me where the missed Hebrew idioms, or they had…
Sid: Okay when you say the terms Hebrew idiom, define idiom and give me an example of a Hebrew idiom that we might have missed.
Bill: Well, an idiom is a saying that you have in one language that wouldn’t mean the same thing in another language. And one my wife likes to use is that we talk about we use is we talk about it raining dogs and cats. And you know any foreigner hearing that would wonder what’s going on. But some of those in the Hebrew that are in the Greek language they are Hebrew idioms that are written in the Greek text that we have.
Sid: Now I asked you to give me an example of this but I have to tell you I’ve been writing down so many examples of these idioms that there’s no way to understand it. For instance in Matthew 15:22 and in many instances there were people that were sick and they were running to Jesus and they were saying “Have mercy on us.” And what is that an idiom for when you when you ask for mercy?
Bill: It’s asking for forgiveness.
Sid: Now there is no way that anyone would realize that that’s what someone is saying.
Sid: And maybe that’s just one of the missing keys as to why people aren’t getting healed.
Bill: That’s true because not only are we asking for forgiveness but Jesus gave us that requirement in the Lord’s prayer that we have to forgive others first before we even ask God to forgive us. We can’t have any un-forgiveness and of course people that have forgiveness are going to have a barrier that keeps them from a healing.
Sid: Now, you started working on this translation. You moved to Lakeland, Florida and you met Eliezer Ben-Yehuda whose is the grandson of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda the one that literally put together what we call modern day Hebrew. That must have been a fascinating time for you to fellowship with him.
Bill: Oh it was awesome; we became very close. He and his wife; in fact they were with us over Memorial Day weekend this year.
Sid: What is he just out of curiosity and I don’t want to put you or him on the spot, has he seen the work that you’ve done and what does he think of it?
Bill: Oh, he thinks that this is the best translation out there, but of course he has more than a dozen reasons why Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
Sid: That’s his problem, but let me tell you something as a Jewish believer in the Messiah I am just overwhelmed with the information that I wasn’t aware of. For instance, it was worth me reading this new translation for one word. You talk about sickness and you say that the Greek really although we put the word sickness in the Greek really means evil. I never heard that before.
Bill: Well, that’s the word that’s in there “Kakos” and it means evil.
Sid: So someone that says “Well God has just given me sickness so that I’ll learn a lesson.” That’s almost like saying God has just put some evil on me so I’ll learn to be a better person.
Sid: I mean when you really get technical I mean that is wonderful, I mean it’s bad that someone would think such theology but it is wonderful to understand that the word translated sickness really is evil. And as a matter of fact you had some problems with sickness and you had a revelation on healing. And I happen to believe that this “Power New Testament” revealing Jewish roots because of your understanding of healing you could bring out scriptures much clearer from the Greek that really explains even the tenses of what the Messiah was saying which makes a big difference in our understanding.
Bill: Oh, it does and see I think that one of the things that helped me to do this compared to other translations, other translators. Is that we my wife and I are hands on ministers and when we lay hands on others and on each other and we expect to be healed. We see healings every time we minister. But see the translators of the major books are all chosen because of scholarship and they’re people that live in Ivory towers. They may not even be born again, and they definitely are not hands on ministers who believe in healing. We know that it’s healing my goodness my eyes were healed.
Sid: What do you mean “My eyes were healed?” Like for instance you wore glasses?
Bill: I wore glasses; yes and it was in March of 1984 we were in Israel and we were talking and I made the comment that “The Lord had healed the eyes of a friend of our back home.” And one of the people with us said “Well yeah He could heal your eyes too.” And I said “Yes He’s going to give me a sign when I should take my glasses off.” And the very next morning while we were waiting for the bus we were on a Benny Hinn tour a young girl with us was cold. And this was maybe 6 or 7 o’clock in the morning. So I gave he my jacket. And when I got the jacket back the glasses that had been in their case in the inside pocket the glasses were broken. So when we got home they stayed broken and roughly 2 months later driving down the road on my way in the morning I could see street signs way…
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand one of the biggest fastest moving heresies in the Body of Believers today. I have Dr. Michael Brown and we’re talking about his brand new book; it’s not in the stores yet but we have it available. It’s called “Hyper-Grace” subtitled “Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.” Now Mike I just find it hard to believe that some people are teaching on such a marvelous subject of true Biblical grace. You and I would not be here if there wasn’t true Biblical grace, but I find it so difficult to believe that some people are teaching some of the things that we’ll talk about today and others are believing it. For instance some are saying “Has God already forgiven all of our future sins, so we can do anything we want?”
Michael: Well let see here is what they’d say none of them would say “You can do whatever you want.” The problem again is human nature being what it is; people struggling; temptation; the world; Satan. We know that there is a lot in the New Testament that addresses purity of life and conduct and so on. If you’re told your future sins have already been forgiven; and that leads to a few other things. I have several chapters in my book that deal with this. And by the way the book is written so anyone can pick it up; whether you’ve been saved 6 months, whether you are a pastor leader, anyone can pick it up read it and follow it. I document every single quote even something from the internet; everything taken in context. Nobody treated in fairly; I say a hardy amen to all the good points these folks are making and then say “Caution, caution, danger.” So here’s the thing. If you are told that all your future sins were forgiven the moment you got saved God not only said “Sid I forgive you; Mike I forgive you for shooting heroine, for stealing money from your father, for your pride, for your rebellion, for your lust, for your sin and everything else. I forgive you for everything you ever done; I give a clean slate I pronounce you righteous, My child.” Not only that He also said “Mike I have already pronounced you forgiven for every sin you’ll ever commit for the rest of your life; don’t be sin conscience; don’t think about…
Sid: By the way that’s a very important phrase. I’m the one you know 30 – 40 years ago there was legalism; today there is hyper-grace; they’re both just as bad.
Michael: Both just as bad.
Sid: Legalism you may not lose your salvation with the hyper-grace I think that you could.
Michael: Well you see legalism drives a lot of people away from Jesus; I hate legalism.
Michael: Legalism is externally imposed religion; legalism is laws without love. It’s standards without a Savior; it’s rules without a relationship. And it drives a lot of people away from God because they think that God is just there with some stick. See Sid some people have very sensitive consciences they do one thing. A mom yells at her kid during the day; a guy has a stray thought during the day and they think “Oh no God hates me; God’s upset with me; just like that church that I grew up in you know if the men wore jewelry or a wedding ring they were in the flesh. If I went to see a G-Rated movie with my family I was going to hell.” So now they here a message of grace and forgiveness and you’re accepted because of what Jesus did; it’s not by your works God loves you even on your worst day.” And they hear these wonderful truths and it liberates them “I’m free.” But then it gets mixed with this error that says “Sid the moment you got saved God forgave past sins, present sins, and future sins.” Rather than what scripture says Jesus paid for them and forgiveness is transacted when we come to God and confess and recognize our sin and ask for mercy. So if I’m told “Mike, all your future sins are forgiven don’t have a sin consciousness.” Okay, God forbid I go out and blow it and I start losing my temper all the time around my family around my friends. And someone says “Mike something wrong you’re out of control.” No, no no man you’re putting condemnation on me; that’s sin consciousness; I’m the righteousness of God in Christ; I’m under grace; I’m not under law.” See that’s what is happening.
Sid: What will it lead to if it isn’t stopped; what will that lead to in your opinion?
Michael: Hardness of heart; backsliding and ultimately denying Jesus and walking away from God.
Sid: So that’s the same thing that happened with the legalism 30, 40 years ago!
Sid: It’s the flip side the devil couldn’t succeed with the legalism but now he’s coming in the backdoor.
Michael: Exactly. And see here’s what I’m jealous for I’m jealous for the person that has a sensitive conscience; I’m jealous for the person that says “But Sid the Bible tells me that I’m to love God with all my heart; all my soul and all mind; all my strength and love my neighbor as myself and I can’t do it.” And so we want to bathe them in grace; we want to bathe them in favor; we want to bathe them in the understanding that we are carried by what Jesus has done; He’s our strength; He’s our power and then. And here’s what we need to recognize hyper-grace teachers also say “We are not supposed to forgive our sins to God and ask for forgiveness because we have already been forgiven.” Some even say it’s a sin to confess sin to God to ask forgiveness. You say “What about 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins He’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins.”
Sid: And that was written to believers not to nonbelievers.
Michael: Right. Across the board I’ve documented Sid in my book quote after quote; they say “No, no, no.” There were Gnostics there were these people who had heretical belief that were part of John’s congregations and that letter was addressing Gnostics who claimto be without sin and encouraging them to turn in faith and be saved. Number 1: There was no such thing as Gnosticism in a hardened form in that day, there was beginnings of Gnostic beliefs but nothing that you could call Gnosticism. Let’s just say that the beliefs were circulating, but what John makes absolutely clear that the heretics had left. First John 2 “They went out from among us.” 1 John 4 “We have overcome them.” So the “they” is always the heretics on the outside; every top John scholar in the world that I’ve read recognizes that the heretics are outside. John is talking about to believers and saying “Look if we say we have no sin like some of these Gnostics say we deceive ourselves.” And here’s what’s really important; anyone that can read Greeks knows this you don’t have to be a Greek scholar. The Greek is ongoing present “If we confess our sins in an ongoing way.” Sid the Greek is very precise; it’s a precise clear language. It’s not saying “If one time when we get saved we confess our sins.” It’s saying this is the way of life. This is why it’s important, I blow it I’m driving here a car cuts me off; this didn’t happen hypothetically. A car cuts me off I lean on my horn and I yell “You jerk, what are you doing?” And I say “Father, I’m so sorry” wash me, cleanse me, that’s not me that’s not who I am I want to serve You.”
Sid: You get your peace back all of a sudden.
Michael: Right, right but if I don’t do that because I’m the righteousness of God in Christ and I can’t even talk about that. Now it allows hardness to come in. Now it allows justification of my sin to come in because hey God doesn’t see it. Sid it is taught in hyper-grace circles that God doesn’t see your sin ever. And every day He looks at you Sid no matter what you’re doing or how you’re living He’s thrilled with you and He’s singing your praises. That’s contrary to the entire New Testament and you have to say if we’re never supposed to be conscience of sin why does Paul bring it up in his letters all the time? Why does Jesus bring it up in His teaching? It’s because sin is deadly and God in His love and goodness and kindness convicts us; not condemns us. Condemnation is “Get away you’re guilty.” Conviction is “Come near to me.”
Sid: You know what I’m thinking? Here we have Hollywood saying “Sin is okay.” We have television saying “Sin is okay.” We have our education system saying “There’s no absolutes” and now we have a large segment of the Church…
Michael: God does not see your sin.
Michael: God doesn’t see it and it doesn’t affect anything.
Sid: Well, that is… I hate to say this but that is a brilliant strategy of the devil!
Michael: It is it’s the spirit of the age.
Sid: It’s a masterful strategy. Mike why did you write the book?
Michael: I was compelled to write the book. Number 1: Because I love the grace of God and I hate to see something polluted. Number 2: Because I was watching life after life getting picked off and destroyed. Number 3: Because pastors and leaders around the world are saying “Mike, please write a book.” In fact through you Sid we were able to bump up the publication date by 5 months to get this out. That’s how urgent it is.
Sid: God wants this… I did what I had to do but it was really God. I’m telling you that you… if it’s not you you have friends and family that are going to get into this heresy. Mike has quotes and he has names. You know I was talking to our mutual friend Steve Hill about naming names and he said “Sid did you know in the New Testament when people were into heresy their names were named right in the New Testament.
Michael: And here’s the thing; I want to help people so I say “Amen to the good things.” Some of these people have gone off the deep end and are not even in the Lord anymore. But those that are Brother and Sisters I plan on being with them for eternity; I’m jealous for them too. I’m saying “I have a corrective for you; I’m reaching out to you; this is such a great message.” Some of them have a great revelation of grace but they got so caught up with it they forgot to stay tethered to the word and start denying scriptural truths and rewriting things. And especially if you can read the Hebrew and Greek you throw the teaching out in a split second. I’ve reached out to them so far without success but I’m hoping that some will recognize the error that they’re mixing with the truth and will come right back to scripture.
Sid: And the anger that I bump into…
Sid: When I talk about “But look at this scripture” and they start calling me names using scripture.
Michael: Yeah, one guy started calling me a jerk on my Facebook page and I said “You know I don’t take comments like that.” I don’t know if he was a believer or not; I said “I hope that you really come to know God’s grace and love.” And he writes back furious “How dare you say “I don’t know God’s grace and love; how dare…” It gets’ really nasty with me and I said to him “You know actually if you were really touched by God’s grace and love expect a different response.” I have a whole chapter on name calling, judgmentalism, divisiveness in the name of grace. Sid I have never seen something nastier more divisive in the so called message of grace that’s gone forth today.
Sid: And they say “There’s no need to confess sin and to repent and the Holy Spirit doesn’t even convict of sin anymore. What a setup by the devil.