Sid: Now one of the tools that has crossed my hands that I saw a few years ago, but I’ve just started to get into it very deep is a New Testament. It’s called “The Power New Testament.” And this is a very very unique translation of the New Testament. I have the translator on the phone, William Morford. Some of the things that makes this unique is the Bill has studied the Jewish Roots of the faith. I happen to believe, and Bill and I were discussing this, that if we go back to what some people consider sacred you know the language that Jesus spoke King James. And of course we know that He didn’t even speak English let alone King James. Bill there was really an anti-Jewish prejudice in the translators of the King James and way even before that of course because that’s where the church was. But even some of the modern translations because of this Jewish prejudice have really missed some important things in the New Testament. As a Greek scholar, as someone that’s studied the Jewish Roots, studied Hebrew from as far as I’m concerned the best Jewish Rabbi on the face of this earth to study this from. Are you frustrated when you read some of these modern translations including the King James?
Bill: Well, I don’t read them anymore.
Sid: (Laughing) So you’re not frustrated anymore.
Bill: I’ve done right so I haven’t read others for oh my goodness must be 10 years because I read the Greek text while I was translating my first addition. And it was very frustrating to read other translations and see things that were incorrect. It just missed the point that the author of the New Testament was trying to make.
Sid: And I have to say something Bill and you obviously you can’t say this and I’m going to say this. I believe that you had supernatural help in this translation. There’s something so riveting it’s almost like I’m reading the Bible for the first time.
Bill: Well it was I prayed every day before working on the translation and it was something that I did personally because I was driven to do it. I know that the Lord appointed me for it. So everything was done in prayer and I had really superior reference books to use and excellent advisers to help me through some of the most difficult passages.
Sid: Now going back to the beginning the average Christian, and you made a serious commitment to the Lord at age 17 coming from a Baptist background does not study Greek? Why did you?
Bill: (Laughing) It was unusual; there was a member in our church who had just come back from the mission field in Zambia. And he had his PhD in Greek and he taught Zambian natives to read the Greek text and sent them out into the field and here we have American seminaries that have stopped requiring Greek because it’s too difficult and here he had the natives in the bush that he taught to read Greek. It’s just awesome. But anyway he was in the church and just offered to teach me and anyone else that was interested in learning Greek. So there was two of us that started and then within a month or so the other one dropped off and he and I had really precious time together as he tutored me personally for over 2 years.
Sid: Then you determined to really learn Greek by translating the scriptures and after 7 years of this the Lord spoke to you about doing something. What did He say?
Bill: “Get serious it’s time to really get serious and do a translation.” And to me that was a frightening prospect because taking on scripture is something that each of us has to take very, very seriously.
Sid: Now in retrospect I see why God told you to do this this is a unique translation. However at the time I think I might have said “God what do you need another translation of Your Bible for?
Bill: Well, I knew that; because there were so many things in it that angered me where the missed Hebrew idioms, or they had…
Sid: Okay when you say the terms Hebrew idiom, define idiom and give me an example of a Hebrew idiom that we might have missed.
Bill: Well, an idiom is a saying that you have in one language that wouldn’t mean the same thing in another language. And one my wife likes to use is that we talk about we use is we talk about it raining dogs and cats. And you know any foreigner hearing that would wonder what’s going on. But some of those in the Hebrew that are in the Greek language they are Hebrew idioms that are written in the Greek text that we have.
Sid: Now I asked you to give me an example of this but I have to tell you I’ve been writing down so many examples of these idioms that there’s no way to understand it. For instance in Matthew 15:22 and in many instances there were people that were sick and they were running to Jesus and they were saying “Have mercy on us.” And what is that an idiom for when you when you ask for mercy?
Bill: It’s asking for forgiveness.
Sid: Now there is no way that anyone would realize that that’s what someone is saying.
Sid: And maybe that’s just one of the missing keys as to why people aren’t getting healed.
Bill: That’s true because not only are we asking for forgiveness but Jesus gave us that requirement in the Lord’s prayer that we have to forgive others first before we even ask God to forgive us. We can’t have any un-forgiveness and of course people that have forgiveness are going to have a barrier that keeps them from a healing.
Sid: Now, you started working on this translation. You moved to Lakeland, Florida and you met Eliezer Ben-Yehuda whose is the grandson of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda the one that literally put together what we call modern day Hebrew. That must have been a fascinating time for you to fellowship with him.
Bill: Oh it was awesome; we became very close. He and his wife; in fact they were with us over Memorial Day weekend this year.
Sid: What is he just out of curiosity and I don’t want to put you or him on the spot, has he seen the work that you’ve done and what does he think of it?
Bill: Oh, he thinks that this is the best translation out there, but of course he has more than a dozen reasons why Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
Sid: That’s his problem, but let me tell you something as a Jewish believer in the Messiah I am just overwhelmed with the information that I wasn’t aware of. For instance, it was worth me reading this new translation for one word. You talk about sickness and you say that the Greek really although we put the word sickness in the Greek really means evil. I never heard that before.
Bill: Well, that’s the word that’s in there “Kakos” and it means evil.
Sid: So someone that says “Well God has just given me sickness so that I’ll learn a lesson.” That’s almost like saying God has just put some evil on me so I’ll learn to be a better person.
Sid: I mean when you really get technical I mean that is wonderful, I mean it’s bad that someone would think such theology but it is wonderful to understand that the word translated sickness really is evil. And as a matter of fact you had some problems with sickness and you had a revelation on healing. And I happen to believe that this “Power New Testament” revealing Jewish roots because of your understanding of healing you could bring out scriptures much clearer from the Greek that really explains even the tenses of what the Messiah was saying which makes a big difference in our understanding.
Bill: Oh, it does and see I think that one of the things that helped me to do this compared to other translations, other translators. Is that we my wife and I are hands on ministers and when we lay hands on others and on each other and we expect to be healed. We see healings every time we minister. But see the translators of the major books are all chosen because of scholarship and they’re people that live in Ivory towers. They may not even be born again, and they definitely are not hands on ministers who believe in healing. We know that it’s healing my goodness my eyes were healed.
Sid: What do you mean “My eyes were healed?” Like for instance you wore glasses?
Bill: I wore glasses; yes and it was in March of 1984 we were in Israel and we were talking and I made the comment that “The Lord had healed the eyes of a friend of our back home.” And one of the people with us said “Well yeah He could heal your eyes too.” And I said “Yes He’s going to give me a sign when I should take my glasses off.” And the very next morning while we were waiting for the bus we were on a Benny Hinn tour a young girl with us was cold. And this was maybe 6 or 7 o’clock in the morning. So I gave he my jacket. And when I got the jacket back the glasses that had been in their case in the inside pocket the glasses were broken. So when we got home they stayed broken and roughly 2 months later driving down the road on my way in the morning I could see street signs way…
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand one of the biggest fastest moving heresies in the Body of Believers today. I have Dr. Michael Brown and we’re talking about his brand new book; it’s not in the stores yet but we have it available. It’s called “Hyper-Grace” subtitled “Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.” Now Mike I just find it hard to believe that some people are teaching on such a marvelous subject of true Biblical grace. You and I would not be here if there wasn’t true Biblical grace, but I find it so difficult to believe that some people are teaching some of the things that we’ll talk about today and others are believing it. For instance some are saying “Has God already forgiven all of our future sins, so we can do anything we want?”
Michael: Well let see here is what they’d say none of them would say “You can do whatever you want.” The problem again is human nature being what it is; people struggling; temptation; the world; Satan. We know that there is a lot in the New Testament that addresses purity of life and conduct and so on. If you’re told your future sins have already been forgiven; and that leads to a few other things. I have several chapters in my book that deal with this. And by the way the book is written so anyone can pick it up; whether you’ve been saved 6 months, whether you are a pastor leader, anyone can pick it up read it and follow it. I document every single quote even something from the internet; everything taken in context. Nobody treated in fairly; I say a hardy amen to all the good points these folks are making and then say “Caution, caution, danger.” So here’s the thing. If you are told that all your future sins were forgiven the moment you got saved God not only said “Sid I forgive you; Mike I forgive you for shooting heroine, for stealing money from your father, for your pride, for your rebellion, for your lust, for your sin and everything else. I forgive you for everything you ever done; I give a clean slate I pronounce you righteous, My child.” Not only that He also said “Mike I have already pronounced you forgiven for every sin you’ll ever commit for the rest of your life; don’t be sin conscience; don’t think about…
Sid: By the way that’s a very important phrase. I’m the one you know 30 – 40 years ago there was legalism; today there is hyper-grace; they’re both just as bad.
Michael: Both just as bad.
Sid: Legalism you may not lose your salvation with the hyper-grace I think that you could.
Michael: Well you see legalism drives a lot of people away from Jesus; I hate legalism.
Michael: Legalism is externally imposed religion; legalism is laws without love. It’s standards without a Savior; it’s rules without a relationship. And it drives a lot of people away from God because they think that God is just there with some stick. See Sid some people have very sensitive consciences they do one thing. A mom yells at her kid during the day; a guy has a stray thought during the day and they think “Oh no God hates me; God’s upset with me; just like that church that I grew up in you know if the men wore jewelry or a wedding ring they were in the flesh. If I went to see a G-Rated movie with my family I was going to hell.” So now they here a message of grace and forgiveness and you’re accepted because of what Jesus did; it’s not by your works God loves you even on your worst day.” And they hear these wonderful truths and it liberates them “I’m free.” But then it gets mixed with this error that says “Sid the moment you got saved God forgave past sins, present sins, and future sins.” Rather than what scripture says Jesus paid for them and forgiveness is transacted when we come to God and confess and recognize our sin and ask for mercy. So if I’m told “Mike, all your future sins are forgiven don’t have a sin consciousness.” Okay, God forbid I go out and blow it and I start losing my temper all the time around my family around my friends. And someone says “Mike something wrong you’re out of control.” No, no no man you’re putting condemnation on me; that’s sin consciousness; I’m the righteousness of God in Christ; I’m under grace; I’m not under law.” See that’s what is happening.
Sid: What will it lead to if it isn’t stopped; what will that lead to in your opinion?
Michael: Hardness of heart; backsliding and ultimately denying Jesus and walking away from God.
Sid: So that’s the same thing that happened with the legalism 30, 40 years ago!
Sid: It’s the flip side the devil couldn’t succeed with the legalism but now he’s coming in the backdoor.
Michael: Exactly. And see here’s what I’m jealous for I’m jealous for the person that has a sensitive conscience; I’m jealous for the person that says “But Sid the Bible tells me that I’m to love God with all my heart; all my soul and all mind; all my strength and love my neighbor as myself and I can’t do it.” And so we want to bathe them in grace; we want to bathe them in favor; we want to bathe them in the understanding that we are carried by what Jesus has done; He’s our strength; He’s our power and then. And here’s what we need to recognize hyper-grace teachers also say “We are not supposed to forgive our sins to God and ask for forgiveness because we have already been forgiven.” Some even say it’s a sin to confess sin to God to ask forgiveness. You say “What about 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins He’s faithful and just to forgive us our sins.”
Sid: And that was written to believers not to nonbelievers.
Michael: Right. Across the board I’ve documented Sid in my book quote after quote; they say “No, no, no.” There were Gnostics there were these people who had heretical belief that were part of John’s congregations and that letter was addressing Gnostics who claimto be without sin and encouraging them to turn in faith and be saved. Number 1: There was no such thing as Gnosticism in a hardened form in that day, there was beginnings of Gnostic beliefs but nothing that you could call Gnosticism. Let’s just say that the beliefs were circulating, but what John makes absolutely clear that the heretics had left. First John 2 “They went out from among us.” 1 John 4 “We have overcome them.” So the “they” is always the heretics on the outside; every top John scholar in the world that I’ve read recognizes that the heretics are outside. John is talking about to believers and saying “Look if we say we have no sin like some of these Gnostics say we deceive ourselves.” And here’s what’s really important; anyone that can read Greeks knows this you don’t have to be a Greek scholar. The Greek is ongoing present “If we confess our sins in an ongoing way.” Sid the Greek is very precise; it’s a precise clear language. It’s not saying “If one time when we get saved we confess our sins.” It’s saying this is the way of life. This is why it’s important, I blow it I’m driving here a car cuts me off; this didn’t happen hypothetically. A car cuts me off I lean on my horn and I yell “You jerk, what are you doing?” And I say “Father, I’m so sorry” wash me, cleanse me, that’s not me that’s not who I am I want to serve You.”
Sid: You get your peace back all of a sudden.
Michael: Right, right but if I don’t do that because I’m the righteousness of God in Christ and I can’t even talk about that. Now it allows hardness to come in. Now it allows justification of my sin to come in because hey God doesn’t see it. Sid it is taught in hyper-grace circles that God doesn’t see your sin ever. And every day He looks at you Sid no matter what you’re doing or how you’re living He’s thrilled with you and He’s singing your praises. That’s contrary to the entire New Testament and you have to say if we’re never supposed to be conscience of sin why does Paul bring it up in his letters all the time? Why does Jesus bring it up in His teaching? It’s because sin is deadly and God in His love and goodness and kindness convicts us; not condemns us. Condemnation is “Get away you’re guilty.” Conviction is “Come near to me.”
Sid: You know what I’m thinking? Here we have Hollywood saying “Sin is okay.” We have television saying “Sin is okay.” We have our education system saying “There’s no absolutes” and now we have a large segment of the Church…
Michael: God does not see your sin.
Michael: God doesn’t see it and it doesn’t affect anything.
Sid: Well, that is… I hate to say this but that is a brilliant strategy of the devil!
Michael: It is it’s the spirit of the age.
Sid: It’s a masterful strategy. Mike why did you write the book?
Michael: I was compelled to write the book. Number 1: Because I love the grace of God and I hate to see something polluted. Number 2: Because I was watching life after life getting picked off and destroyed. Number 3: Because pastors and leaders around the world are saying “Mike, please write a book.” In fact through you Sid we were able to bump up the publication date by 5 months to get this out. That’s how urgent it is.
Sid: God wants this… I did what I had to do but it was really God. I’m telling you that you… if it’s not you you have friends and family that are going to get into this heresy. Mike has quotes and he has names. You know I was talking to our mutual friend Steve Hill about naming names and he said “Sid did you know in the New Testament when people were into heresy their names were named right in the New Testament.
Michael: And here’s the thing; I want to help people so I say “Amen to the good things.” Some of these people have gone off the deep end and are not even in the Lord anymore. But those that are Brother and Sisters I plan on being with them for eternity; I’m jealous for them too. I’m saying “I have a corrective for you; I’m reaching out to you; this is such a great message.” Some of them have a great revelation of grace but they got so caught up with it they forgot to stay tethered to the word and start denying scriptural truths and rewriting things. And especially if you can read the Hebrew and Greek you throw the teaching out in a split second. I’ve reached out to them so far without success but I’m hoping that some will recognize the error that they’re mixing with the truth and will come right back to scripture.
Sid: And the anger that I bump into…
Sid: When I talk about “But look at this scripture” and they start calling me names using scripture.
Michael: Yeah, one guy started calling me a jerk on my Facebook page and I said “You know I don’t take comments like that.” I don’t know if he was a believer or not; I said “I hope that you really come to know God’s grace and love.” And he writes back furious “How dare you say “I don’t know God’s grace and love; how dare…” It gets’ really nasty with me and I said to him “You know actually if you were really touched by God’s grace and love expect a different response.” I have a whole chapter on name calling, judgmentalism, divisiveness in the name of grace. Sid I have never seen something nastier more divisive in the so called message of grace that’s gone forth today.
Sid: And they say “There’s no need to confess sin and to repent and the Holy Spirit doesn’t even convict of sin anymore. What a setup by the devil.
Sid: Forget what we want God says “He wants you to be red hot for the Messiah.” I have a guest who is doing the works of Jesus and training people to do it. And he’s just come out with a book. The book is titled “When Heaven Invades Earth.” And the principals that he’s learned that has allowed him to walk in the supernatural are for you, and God wants you to walk in the supernatural. My guest Bill Johnson Senior Pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California. Under the Bethel Church is the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry. On yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about the original commission of Adam and Eve which they lost. Which the Devil took over; which Jesus purchased back for us; and we understand all of this intellectually Bill but how do we get from the intellectual to the manifestation?
Bill: First of all we have to believe that it’s available, secondly if it is available then we have to learn how to pursue. Prayer is the obvious part, but prayer has to be very specific. Third we have to expose yourself to people that are doing it. It’s very important because the anointing of the grace that’s on individual’s life affect how we see reality and it affects how we live. And there’s a transference if you will of the anointing by just being with the right people.
Sid: Almost an Elijah, Elisha type?
Bill: Exactly, an illustration I really like is there’s at least four other giants killed in the Bible besides Goliath but they were all killed by the mighty men of David. So we tell people if you want to kill giants hang around somebody who kills them. If you want to be a giant killer just hang around people that have done it because it will rub off on you.
Sid: Now Bill, you say there are no more excuses for powerlessness. What do you mean by that?
Bill: The Holy Spirit is the greatest gift the person could ever, ever receive. He’s the actual power of heaven. He’s the resurrection power that brought Jesus up from the grave and He lives inside of me. It is… we are absolutely without excuse if we don’t live in power. We have been given the resource of heaven to represent Jesus. And that word “represent” means to re-pre-sent Him. What was He like? It is our obligation our indebtedness to the world is to re-pre-sent Jesus as He was. And that’s the assignment that we have in the great commission.
Sid: Now there were some secrets that the Jewish people had in the Old Covenant that really need to be recovered, explain.
Bill: You know I really believe you know we have a moment in history where we are… this might be too big of a subject for just today. But we have an opportunity to be architects of a revival culture. And part of that for us has been recovering the purpose of the testimony. Everybody likes testimonies because they are encouraging. But very few people realize there significance. I believe that God gave us the testimony in Israel’s history; Israel’s culture in New Testament revival culture. The testimony was given to us to preserve the revelation of God for Heresy and unbelief. The revelation of the nature of God; every testimony unveils the nature of God but also brings with it an invitation to come and know God in that same way. Let me illustrate it. We had a 3 year old boy healed of club feet and I was giving the testimony here in church one Sunday. It happened 3 hours away from here. And I was giving the testimony and I was telling them about the verse in Revelation that says “The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.” Biblical prophecy doesn’t just foretell it actually causes events to take place. And so that means a testimony, the spoken or written record of what God has done carries with it an anointing that causes things to happen. So as I gave the teaching on the testimony of Jesus being the Spirit of prophecy I mentioned about the boy with the club feet. There was a family from Montana and there was a little girl whose feet turned inward about45 degree angle. She heard the teaching on the testimony on the club feet and she said “I’ll take that for my daughter.” Her daughter was about 2 years old and was in our nursery; when the message was over the meeting was over she went to the nursery to get her little girl. And her little girl’s feet were turned in so severely that she would actually trip over them when she would run.
Bill: She picked up her little girl her little girl’s feet were already straight. No body prayed for her the power of the testimony. I was in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania last fall Randy Clark’s conference there and I gave those two stories. And there was a man in the room that had a deformity in his hip that caused his leg to aim outside towards his foot. It actually went outward toward the side. When I gave the message and I gave those two testimonies I had everyone stand at the end for us to pray. And when he stood his hip turned and his leg turned and faced completely forward and was completely healed and nobody prayed for him, it was the power of the testimony. Israel had a responsibility in Deuteronomy 6 not to just keep the commandments of the Lord but they were commanded to keep the testimony. And we know how to keep a commandment because it means obedience. But what is it to keep a testimony? I believe it means to keep the remembrance the record of the miraculous invasions of God in their life. To keep them so close to our heart that they affect number 1how I view reality, and number 2 how I’m going to live.
Sid: Bill you talk about so many nuggets in your book that break us out of… and let’s face it we’re in an intellectual society, therefore we take a totally intellectual approach towards the scriptures. And the Holy Spirit, the life just is almost separated from the two.
Sid: How do we put the two back together?
Bill: We got to humble our self. Our intellect has been in charge of our Christianity and Biblically that’s called carnal Christianity. Whenever the soul is in charge, whenever the soul governs over the spirit of a man then that’s carnal Christianity and we have to realize. See we don’t understand we don’t have faith because we understand something. We understand something because we have faith. Faith, biblical faith; true faith is superior to the intellect and for most Christians intellect is in charge when the intellect needs to be the student not the leader; the student not the teacher; the follower not the leader. The intellect is wonderful thing; God is not intimidated by our intelligence at all. And our mind is supposed to be that canvas that He paints His creative expression on. But when the mind is in charge then we reduce God to our size.
Sid: You talk in your book about praying the power of God out of heaven. Is it almost like there’s a canopy over us and somehow our prayer has to break through that canopy to get the answers?
Bill: Yeah, I don’t know how it all works all I know is Jesus made the announcement He said “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” It’s within reach but he also said the violent take it by force.” There’s a lot of unique expressions that He gave that gives us understanding how to apprehend what is made available. John Lake was real good at that. He talked about things that we desire that only exist in heaven. “We’ll have to go there to get it,” of course what he’s talking about is prayer. The great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 happened after 120 people invaded heaven so to speak for 10 days. They had been praying and crying out to God and then God broke through in their world. And we just have to know how to put ourselves really on the line, on the stretch so to speak, as we cry out to the Lord in real reckless abandonment.
Sid: And what about the people that understand what you’re saying and stood on the promises of God’s word and are not elderly people and middle-age, and they die of a dread disease like cancer? What do you say to their family? What do you say to the person that says “I couldn’t have as much faith as so and so had and so what hope is there for me?”
Bill: You know I don’t ever want to you know when I’m praying with people before, while they are sick or afterwards I never point to their lack of faith as the reason. I don’t ever want to put it on them because I’m the one doing the praying. The Bible says “The prayer of faith will heal the sick so it’s my praying not there’s. You know what I won’t do is I won’t make up excuses for why a person died and didn’t get healed. What I won’t do is pray the bad theology to explain away my weakness. If I make excuses for lack of breakthrough I will always have lack of breakthrough. I have to return to the Biblical standard. Jesus healed everyone who was brought to Him. Not everyone that’s brought to me gets healed; not everyone brought to the disciples got healed. But everyone brought to Jesus. All I know to do is I have to try to raise my standard of life up to the standard of scripture. And not lower the Bible to my level of experience. What happens to many many Christians is that they experience disappointment. And the Bible says “Hope deferred makes the heart sick.” In the moment of disappointment and loss we’re in a very vulnerable place spiritually. Many still believe in healing but just don’t believe that it’s for everyone. Or they just don’t believe they have the anointing for it so they somebody comes that wants prayer so they send them to somebody else. And we just have to deal with those issues. And we do it by getting before the Lord until He brings healing to the wound in our own heart. Understanding will follow if we require understand before we are willing to obey then we cripple our self. But you know we have to live with the fact that we have not arrived yet and I see a lot of people healed; I see a lot of people not healed. A lot of people roll away in wheelchairs after I pray for them that didn’t get healed. I can either make up a doctrine “Oh this is why it happened.” I can blame them, or I can use that as fuel to cry out to God all the more to have a greater breakthrough in my life. And it’s that third one that I’ve chosen to do.
Sid: Your listening to Pastor Bill Johnson and he has a book on healing that I tell you will move you so close to God and give you insight that is necessary titled “When Heaven Invades Earth. Randy Clark who you mentioned had this to say “I wish I’d met Pastor Bill Johnson earlier in my life. I feel I would be further along in the road to moving in the power of the Kingdom of God than I presently am at this time. And he sees tons of miracles.”
Sid: By the way someone’s back has just been healed and someone’s hip and then leg was just healed in Jesus Name. My guest Hank Kunneman from a young age was given a special gift from God. A very precise prophesy, we’ve been learning just a number of prophesies he’s had of prominent people that people have heard these predictions and then seen them come to pass. Now Hank I would like to know what is God showing you for the future for the United States of America.
This is Sid Roth interrupting the broadcast; I want you to know that the interview was done approximately 2 weeks before the presidential election. Let’s go back to the interview now.
Hank: I believe that that’s an excellent question and the reason why is because I have heard such a mixture from prophetic vessels around the world about America. Which has many many times brought me to a place of prayer in my own life because one thing I don’t want to be is I don’t want to be a wrong prophet; I don’t want to be a false prophet, I want to be a pure prophet of the Lord. So what I feel that the Lord has said to me and let me give an example. It was about a few months earlier of this year; I was kneeling in my home praying and all of a sudden I smelled the perfume of the Messiah. I literally knew that He had walked into my room; sometimes I’ve seen Him but in this case I did not see Him. But I knew that He was there the curtains were blowing; there was a wind that came into my room. I immediately was kneeling down by the couch and I heard these words, it was almost like He was sitting next to me, and I heard His word so clearly. He said “Hank America I want to give like I did with Nineveh another chance.”
Sid: Yeah, but Nineveh eventually went back to the same old sins.
Hank: Sure and that’s the danger.
Sid: Do you think we’re buying time or do you think that it’s a possibility that America could between now and the time that Jesus returns be the great nation that it is?
Hank: Well, I believe that America has its day. I believe that America is going to come into its finest hour. I know that that’s not the most popular thing that people are saying. I believe that America will also have her day and will also go the other way. But I believe that other nations that have experienced great revivals and America has been left out has not been God’s plan or God’s best. We have financed most of the gospel around the world; we have been instrumental in sending missions…
Sid: To survive we need a revival.
Hank: We need a revival. Here’s what the Lord said to me when He came that day. He said, “Hank I don’t have very many friends like I had in the days when I came to Abraham and when I came to Moses and I could discuss the issues of the nation.” Because here’s the thing, I believe that we’ve been between wines. What I mean by that we have not yet seen the outpouring of the Holy Spirit like the first miracle of Jesus in John chapter 2. They were between wines, the first wine ran out but something happened, Mary, Jesus’s mother, went and literally produced and forced a miracle. Jesus said “My time has not yet come,” and yet He turned and did the very thing that his mother asked. I believe that we are in a crucial time in our nations and I believe that God is looking for people who are going to get upon their face. Like Abraham like he would have cried out “If there be one righteous.” Like Moses who put his hand in the face of God and said “God You’re going to remember your covenant.” Like Mary “Jesus You’re going to do this.” God’s looking for people that will have that kind of heart for the nation. And what I see God doing is in Jonah chapter 4 Nineveh couldn’t tell its right hand from its left. In fact God told them in Jonah 3:1 it says “Jonah go to Nineveh the second time and prophesy.” So Nineveh turned and eventually they went back into corruption. Here’s what I’m concerned about “Even as I prophesied that George Bush would be reelected again; even as I have declared that God is going to reseed righteousness again it doesn’t mean that this man is perfect. What this administration represents is God bringing a praying president to a nation who desperately needs it to bring righteousness again in our land. But here’s the concern that I have. Your go back and look in the book of Jeremiah when the prophet was raised up to prophesy to the nations. Here’s the thing that I noticed, Josiah in the 12th year of his reign he began to take down the high places, he began to reform to the nation. But here’s the problem; in the thirteenth year okay righteousness was in the leader but the problem was righteousness didn’t last in the nation. And as a result you look at the prophecies of Jeremiah his words got harder and harder from Jeremiah 2 to Jeremiah 3. And he would literally declaring that they had lost their heart that they were backsliding against God. And yet you have this righteous king who wanted to bring these great reforms. And that’s where America’s in danger right now with Bush being reelected here. Because we have a president who wants to stand for righteousness; we have a president who prays, but we have to have a nation that agrees. And the Lord said something to me also before this election He said “I’m bringing America into a new 40 year cycle.” I’ve watched how things sometimes go in a 40 year cycle. What I’ve noticed is that they had all the Mars; rovers that went in part of this year. Well 40 years prior there was a rover that went to Mars. But isn’t it interesting the rovers were the ones that came this year; they were Spirit and Opportunity. Because God is trying to say to mankind and to America “I’m trying to give spirit and opportunity.” Forty years ago the surgeon general rose up and said that “Cigarette smoking was hazardous to our health;” the increase of cancer increased. One of the things the Lord said “With this election God said “I will open the heavens over America, I’m going to crack the heavens and I’m going to bring America into its finest day.” I believe that there’s going to be increase of medical breakthroughs. I believe that there’s going to come an increase in fact I absolutely know it of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. There’s going to come an unseating of what God said with Eli’s those that have been in the political realm and even in the church that have been seated upon they’re seats of authority that have not been ruling righteously. That have not been governing righteously they are going to fall backwards and they are going to begin to be removed from their places of authority. So God is going to begin to give us judges as of the first, and there’s going to be changes in our laws. For example the Lord said to me and I didn’t know this but I saw Roe and Wade, I saw their names and I saw two woman going back into the Supreme Court. I saw abortion being overturned in our land I literally saw prayer being reinstated. When the 10 Commandments were being taken from that court house in Alabama I prophesied 2 years prior watch Birmingham. God’s going said “I’m going to give a sign.” Now what the enemy did not realize is that the commandments are written in our hearts. And God is raising up a people that are going to fight for the redemptive plans of our nation and we’re going to begin to see America turn. It starts with a righteous leader but it also has to have a righteous people that will come into cooperation and agreement with what God says.
Sid: Now you said that God’s big concern for you in prayer was the election coming up in 2008.
Hank: Yes, and the reason being is “I believe that God is doing what He did even with Josiah. We have a president in place who prays; what we need is America, the church. Listen, we’ve never been in so much controversy. We’re like 1 Kings 18 “Caught between two opinions.” We can see that in this past election here how divided the nation has. I believe that like never before we’re going to see in this nation an absolute window of grace is what I call it in this next 4 years to really what I say get it right. If we don’t God told me it would go the other way in 2008 and it will be reversed. That’s why it’s very crucial that we pray and that we support because there’s going to be major laws in our land that have been on the books. Things that have been stolen from us 40 years prior, God wants to revisit and bring into our nation like prayer; Bible study again coming to the forefront.
Sid: What about abortion, what’s going to happen to that?
Hank: Well, it’s like I said earlier I have seen abortion get overturned.
Sid: What about the Supreme Court Justices that are all against it?
Hank: Well, they are going to be removed. In fact I prophesied that there is two that are going to be removed and a third one will follow. And that’s why God had to put the right man in the place of power whether people like it or not.
Sid: Who’s going to be the next President after George Bush?
Hank: God hasn’t shown me but what He did say is that there would be a future leader that would be raised up out of Florida. And He told me not to speculate or have the people speculate but He said “He’s being groomed right now in Florida.” Prophesied before the election that there would be 3 that would enter into a race. One out of Florida one out of Texas and would also be one out of Oklahoma and they would enter into a race.
Sid: Would one be Satan’s candidate?
Hank: Boy, you know what I believe this; even in Jesus’ ministry there was always a Judas groomed you know. So; I believe that the enemy wants to raise up. And this is what God said to me “If America doesn’t pray and uphold righteousness that’s been seated again.” Then here’s my concern and here’s what I believe is on the heart of the Lord. I believe, this is my opinion this is not the word of the Lord, I believe that we will have a woman elected for president for the first time in the history of our nation. That’s the potential of where we’re heading.
Sid: For good or for bad?
Hank: For bad, not for good. I didn’t necessarily hear this from God but I sense in my spirit that the devil is grooming a woman.
Sid: Okay, why did you write your new book “Hide and Seek?”
Hank: Because I want people to get hungry to find and meet God that was written by a man, myself, who couldn’t for 6 months I could not sense God in prayer; He seemed a million miles away from me. And for 6 months I just stayed in there and I just kept praying and praying and crying out to God. One day, I’ll never forget, I was out fasting and praying and I saw some deer off in the hills. I said “Lord if You’re even hearing me let these deer come to me.” Of course the deer ran the opposite direction; I wound up getting frustrated, laid down and only to wake up a few minutes later and the deer were right in front of me. And God said “I’m a God that hides Myself, I’ve been there all along I’d been watching you and I’ve put something in you called perseverance and prayer and can’t be taken from you.” Because too many of us we base our life off of how we feel or if we’re in the mood to pray; rather than persevere regardless of how we feel or what’s being faced before us. And seek God with all of our heart.
Sid: And even worse, what about those that are so discouraged they actually start blaming God. I mean if they only knew that this life is a blink of the eye.
Hank: That’s right.
Sid: In fact, all God is looking for is a friend.
Hank: That’s right. In fact one of the greatest things that happened in my life, and I would encourage others to do the same, is when I asked God one day when I took the eyes off of me and I put it on God I said “God what is on Your heart? What do you want today?” When I took the attention off of me and put it on God all of a sudden things began to change. In fact, that’s when it happened also when those deer came. God said “I’m a God that’s hiding myself.” I went back into the room and immediately I said “Lord You’re here.” As soon as I said that I was thrown across the room and fell out under the power, and was thrown, literally, across my room and tremendous power hit me. I believe if people will just take the time to kneel down and cry out to God and hunger for Him, and be sensitive to ask Him what’s on His heart, your needs will always be met. Your own situations will always work out for good, but many of us we always come in and we…
Sid: Have you had people just take that little advice, and of course you have a whole book on advice, that little advice and have it change their life?
Sid: I want to see you mobilized, I mean it’s great that I’m proclaiming the good news, but what is greater is that there are people that are crossing your path that there is no one on the face of this earth that is better equipped to reach with the gospel. Now when it comes to Jewish people most Christians are intimidated. Have misunderstandings, and that’s why I’ve asked my friend Jonathan Bernis from “Jewish Voice” who if anyone knows the how to reach Jewish people with the gospel it’s my friend Jonathan. Because for the last was it a decade or so Jonathan, how many years?
Jonathan: Well actually 14 years now.
Sid: Boy it’s hard to believe, for the last 14 years he has been proclaiming the gospel in festivals. A quarter of a million Jewish people have attended these festivals, half of them have made professions of faith. And Jonathan the thing that is so in this day and age, this day of computers, and information flowing like it is there are such misconceptions that real born again Christians have about Jewish people. We were talking about that yesterday.
Jonathan: Yes we were and incredible misconceptions to us as Jewish people who know how wrong these attitudes are. But one misconception I’ve talked about yesterday where we left off is that Christian’s have that Jewish people know the scriptures better than they do, or in particular the Old Testament. And I laugh every time I think about this because we don’t know the scriptures. Ninety percent of American Jews are Bible illiterate, they’re maybe like I prepared for their Bar Mitzvah at age 13 and learned to read Hebrew and maybe one portion of scripture, but that’s it. I learned Hebrew Sid and never learned what I was reading. So…
Sid: And in that same with me.
Jonathan: Exactly. When you were saying yesterday they don’t know about Isaiah 53; they don’t even know who Isaiah is or Jeremiah. I mean they know what the Torah is but they don’t know what the Torah says. And so this misconception that the Jewish people are the people of the Book which is one of the terms for the Jewish people is just a very serious misconception. And it creates this fear factor for Christians. I’m not going to share with them because they’ll embarrass me because they’ll know the scriptures so well. Well, unless they have a black, a long black coat, payot, these side locks, and a black hat they don’t know the scriptures at all. So go to it.
Sid: And I’ll just add a PS to that, if your just a Christian that attending Sunday school as a child you have a better education of the scriptures than 98% of the Jewish people that God will have cross your path. Go ahead.
Jonathan: Exactly, most do not have any concept of the Messiah, or sin or what the Jewish scriptures clearly teach. So one very important principal is to share with a Jewish person as you would share with anyone else that needs the Lord. They have the same crisis’ in their life; they have to face the same fate that we all face. Which is death and what happens after you die. And taxes of course; we have to pay taxes. But Jewish people are approachable. Another misconception is that all Jewish people have rejected Christ as Messiah, that’s another misconception as a nation. The Rabbis have steered us in a different direction but many Jewish people Sid are open to the gospel. And I love being with you and watching you share with every person that comes across your path. One of the best places to reach Jewish people is the deli, the local deli.
Sid: Nah nah your wrong, the best place is a Chinese restaurant Jonathan. (Laughing)
Jonathan: Chinese restaurant.
Sid: (Laughing) He’s also right on that but go ahead.
Jonathan: Oh, it’s absolutely true but you know why are we intimidated as believers from sharing the gospel with Jewish people that need to hear. We shouldn’t be, so those are misconceptions. So another very serious misconception Sid is Christians born again Spirit-filled Christians that have been taught that it’s good will not to share with Jewish people. There’s something called dual covenant theology that simply states that it’s a theological idea that emerged after the Holocaust that says that “Jewish people have their own path to God through Judaism.” And it’s made it’s way, it’s seeped into evangelical Christianity like a plague and it’s totally false. Paul makes it very clear, the Apostle Paul said “The gospel is the power of God to all who believe first to the Jew and then to the Gentle.” The gospel is to the Jew first, and so to believe the Jewish people have a separate plan… way to God to salvation is really a demonic theology. It’s a doctrine of devils, and so we have to be…
Sid: And I might add unfortunately Mishpochah there are many even prominent telly evangelists that have this theology worked into their books to let you off the hook so you don’t have to share with the Jewish person. But scriptures say “There is no other Name given unto men in which we must be saved but the Name of Jesus.
Jonathan: And that’s to the Jew first and this is a terrible misconception and we have to be on guard not to buy into un-scriptural doctrine. So we need to… not target the Jewish people as such but we need to see Jewish people that God has placed in our path as Divine appointments. Sid let me tell you a very sad story, which of course has a great ending, but it’s a sad story. I started to hear the gospel at age 16; I was involved with a group called Young Life.
Sid: I’m familiar with it.
Jonathan: Many of my Gentile friends become born again Christians and I could not deny the change that I was seeing taking place in their life. I heard the gospel numerous times but every time I was confronted with the gospel who do you say that He is Jonathan by two Christian counselors in Young Life and then Christian friends. I responded always just off the cuff, “I’m Jewish.” The sad story Sid is that they always apologized instead of tell me “Oh, that’s fantastic Jesus was Jewish and His name was Yeshua; all of the disciples were Jewish; the Apostle Paul was Jewish, the writers of the New Testament were Jewish; the covenant; this new covenant was made with your people.” Instead they apologized as if they automatically understood that being Jewish was that I was excluded from the gospel.
Sid: Listen, there’s something even worse than that it’s called “Fear of man.” I have talked to prominent Christians that were so interested in understanding their Biblical roots they befriended Rabbis and leaders in the Jewish community and they studies with them. And I said “Did you ever share the gospel?” They said, “No no they know what I believe they could have asked me.” What a tragedy!
Jonathan: That’s tragic and it’s really the result of some very very wrong understanding and it needs to be changed. Sid the good news is that 4 years later in college I was encountered again with the gospel and my life was transformed. But just think Sid, I think back often to those 4 years if someone had just told me the truth, that this was for me as a Jew I might have been spared through from all kinds of garbage that you know about that I got involved in. But nobody did, so this misconception is killing Jewish people eternally. I can’t state strongly enough that this misconception is causing Jewish people to go to Hell. There’s no other way to say it.
Sid: Well you know there’s a flip side of this and the flip side is from the traditional Jewish community we’re given the rhetoric you can’t be Jewish and believe in Jesus. The Christians on the other side aren’t witnessing and they have this misguided theology. And on the Jewish side we’re told that we can’t be Jewish and believe in Jesus. What would you say to a Jewish person that said that to you?
Jonathan: I would say, “Tell that to Peter, James, tell that to John.”
Sid: I don’t know who they are Jonathan, my Rabbi says that I can’t be Jewish and believe in Jesus.
Jonathan: I would say “Why don’t you find out for yourself instead of believing what the Rabbi is teaching you and he’s just been taught because that’s what his Rabbi taught him. You know this has been handed down Sid for the last 2000 years from generation to generation to generation. And I found out 24 years ago that I was simply taught a lie. And we need to find out; you need to find out for yourself. Read the Jewish scriptures for yourself; I’m not even talking about the New Testament. Go back and read the Jewish scriptures, read the Tenach, read the Prophet Isaiah, read Jeremiah, read the Torah and you’ll find prophecy after prophecy after prophecy that talk about a literal Messiah that will come and deliver our people. And clearly Yeshua of Nazareth, Jesus the Messiah, fulfilled all of these prophecies.
Sid: You know Jonathan I was just getting a sandwich and I started a conversation with a guy behind me he says “He’s Catholic and that he knows the Lord and that his wife was Jewish and now she’s Catholic.” And so I corrected him, I said “No, your wife isn’t going to change being Jewish she’s always been Jewish and she stays Jewish.” Even Paul said that he was a Jew but he got… literally got angry with me when I told him that his wife is still Jewish.
Jonathan: I’m not surprised, it’s called tradition Sid, it’s called tradition.
Sid: You mean we Jewish people don’t have a corner on the market (singing) “Tradition!” (Laughing)
Jonathan: No, it’s part of human nature to… and you know what it is Sid, it’s really casting God in our image, that’s what it really is when you really… the bottom line is as we say is “You cast God in your own image when you create through tradition your own understanding of what religion should be.” That’s not what it’s about it’s believing what He says about His plan for eternal life and His plan for how we should live.
Sid: Jonathan we’re out of time we’ll pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast.