Sid: I want to see you mobilized, I mean it’s great that I’m proclaiming the good news, but what is greater is that there are people that are crossing your path that there is no one on the face of this earth that is better equipped to reach with the gospel. Now when it comes to Jewish people most Christians are intimidated. Have misunderstandings, and that’s why I’ve asked my friend Jonathan Bernis from “Jewish Voice” who if anyone knows the how to reach Jewish people with the gospel it’s my friend Jonathan. Because for the last was it a decade or so Jonathan, how many years?
Jonathan: Well actually 14 years now.
Sid: Boy it’s hard to believe, for the last 14 years he has been proclaiming the gospel in festivals. A quarter of a million Jewish people have attended these festivals, half of them have made professions of faith. And Jonathan the thing that is so in this day and age, this day of computers, and information flowing like it is there are such misconceptions that real born again Christians have about Jewish people. We were talking about that yesterday.
Jonathan: Yes we were and incredible misconceptions to us as Jewish people who know how wrong these attitudes are. But one misconception I’ve talked about yesterday where we left off is that Christian’s have that Jewish people know the scriptures better than they do, or in particular the Old Testament. And I laugh every time I think about this because we don’t know the scriptures. Ninety percent of American Jews are Bible illiterate, they’re maybe like I prepared for their Bar Mitzvah at age 13 and learned to read Hebrew and maybe one portion of scripture, but that’s it. I learned Hebrew Sid and never learned what I was reading. So…
Sid: And in that same with me.
Jonathan: Exactly. When you were saying yesterday they don’t know about Isaiah 53; they don’t even know who Isaiah is or Jeremiah. I mean they know what the Torah is but they don’t know what the Torah says. And so this misconception that the Jewish people are the people of the Book which is one of the terms for the Jewish people is just a very serious misconception. And it creates this fear factor for Christians. I’m not going to share with them because they’ll embarrass me because they’ll know the scriptures so well. Well, unless they have a black, a long black coat, payot, these side locks, and a black hat they don’t know the scriptures at all. So go to it.
Sid: And I’ll just add a PS to that, if your just a Christian that attending Sunday school as a child you have a better education of the scriptures than 98% of the Jewish people that God will have cross your path. Go ahead.
Jonathan: Exactly, most do not have any concept of the Messiah, or sin or what the Jewish scriptures clearly teach. So one very important principal is to share with a Jewish person as you would share with anyone else that needs the Lord. They have the same crisis’ in their life; they have to face the same fate that we all face. Which is death and what happens after you die. And taxes of course; we have to pay taxes. But Jewish people are approachable. Another misconception is that all Jewish people have rejected Christ as Messiah, that’s another misconception as a nation. The Rabbis have steered us in a different direction but many Jewish people Sid are open to the gospel. And I love being with you and watching you share with every person that comes across your path. One of the best places to reach Jewish people is the deli, the local deli.
Sid: Nah nah your wrong, the best place is a Chinese restaurant Jonathan. (Laughing)
Jonathan: Chinese restaurant.
Sid: (Laughing) He’s also right on that but go ahead.
Jonathan: Oh, it’s absolutely true but you know why are we intimidated as believers from sharing the gospel with Jewish people that need to hear. We shouldn’t be, so those are misconceptions. So another very serious misconception Sid is Christians born again Spirit-filled Christians that have been taught that it’s good will not to share with Jewish people. There’s something called dual covenant theology that simply states that it’s a theological idea that emerged after the Holocaust that says that “Jewish people have their own path to God through Judaism.” And it’s made it’s way, it’s seeped into evangelical Christianity like a plague and it’s totally false. Paul makes it very clear, the Apostle Paul said “The gospel is the power of God to all who believe first to the Jew and then to the Gentle.” The gospel is to the Jew first, and so to believe the Jewish people have a separate plan… way to God to salvation is really a demonic theology. It’s a doctrine of devils, and so we have to be…
Sid: And I might add unfortunately Mishpochah there are many even prominent telly evangelists that have this theology worked into their books to let you off the hook so you don’t have to share with the Jewish person. But scriptures say “There is no other Name given unto men in which we must be saved but the Name of Jesus.
Jonathan: And that’s to the Jew first and this is a terrible misconception and we have to be on guard not to buy into un-scriptural doctrine. So we need to… not target the Jewish people as such but we need to see Jewish people that God has placed in our path as Divine appointments. Sid let me tell you a very sad story, which of course has a great ending, but it’s a sad story. I started to hear the gospel at age 16; I was involved with a group called Young Life.
Sid: I’m familiar with it.
Jonathan: Many of my Gentile friends become born again Christians and I could not deny the change that I was seeing taking place in their life. I heard the gospel numerous times but every time I was confronted with the gospel who do you say that He is Jonathan by two Christian counselors in Young Life and then Christian friends. I responded always just off the cuff, “I’m Jewish.” The sad story Sid is that they always apologized instead of tell me “Oh, that’s fantastic Jesus was Jewish and His name was Yeshua; all of the disciples were Jewish; the Apostle Paul was Jewish, the writers of the New Testament were Jewish; the covenant; this new covenant was made with your people.” Instead they apologized as if they automatically understood that being Jewish was that I was excluded from the gospel.
Sid: Listen, there’s something even worse than that it’s called “Fear of man.” I have talked to prominent Christians that were so interested in understanding their Biblical roots they befriended Rabbis and leaders in the Jewish community and they studies with them. And I said “Did you ever share the gospel?” They said, “No no they know what I believe they could have asked me.” What a tragedy!
Jonathan: That’s tragic and it’s really the result of some very very wrong understanding and it needs to be changed. Sid the good news is that 4 years later in college I was encountered again with the gospel and my life was transformed. But just think Sid, I think back often to those 4 years if someone had just told me the truth, that this was for me as a Jew I might have been spared through from all kinds of garbage that you know about that I got involved in. But nobody did, so this misconception is killing Jewish people eternally. I can’t state strongly enough that this misconception is causing Jewish people to go to Hell. There’s no other way to say it.
Sid: Well you know there’s a flip side of this and the flip side is from the traditional Jewish community we’re given the rhetoric you can’t be Jewish and believe in Jesus. The Christians on the other side aren’t witnessing and they have this misguided theology. And on the Jewish side we’re told that we can’t be Jewish and believe in Jesus. What would you say to a Jewish person that said that to you?
Jonathan: I would say, “Tell that to Peter, James, tell that to John.”
Sid: I don’t know who they are Jonathan, my Rabbi says that I can’t be Jewish and believe in Jesus.
Jonathan: I would say “Why don’t you find out for yourself instead of believing what the Rabbi is teaching you and he’s just been taught because that’s what his Rabbi taught him. You know this has been handed down Sid for the last 2000 years from generation to generation to generation. And I found out 24 years ago that I was simply taught a lie. And we need to find out; you need to find out for yourself. Read the Jewish scriptures for yourself; I’m not even talking about the New Testament. Go back and read the Jewish scriptures, read the Tenach, read the Prophet Isaiah, read Jeremiah, read the Torah and you’ll find prophecy after prophecy after prophecy that talk about a literal Messiah that will come and deliver our people. And clearly Yeshua of Nazareth, Jesus the Messiah, fulfilled all of these prophecies.
Sid: You know Jonathan I was just getting a sandwich and I started a conversation with a guy behind me he says “He’s Catholic and that he knows the Lord and that his wife was Jewish and now she’s Catholic.” And so I corrected him, I said “No, your wife isn’t going to change being Jewish she’s always been Jewish and she stays Jewish.” Even Paul said that he was a Jew but he got… literally got angry with me when I told him that his wife is still Jewish.
Jonathan: I’m not surprised, it’s called tradition Sid, it’s called tradition.
Sid: You mean we Jewish people don’t have a corner on the market (singing) “Tradition!” (Laughing)
Jonathan: No, it’s part of human nature to… and you know what it is Sid, it’s really casting God in our image, that’s what it really is when you really… the bottom line is as we say is “You cast God in your own image when you create through tradition your own understanding of what religion should be.” That’s not what it’s about it’s believing what He says about His plan for eternal life and His plan for how we should live.
Sid: Jonathan we’re out of time we’ll pick up here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to know how to create realms and atmospheres around them that as the copartner with God everything that teaches in the Bible that Jesus did you will do the same things and you will do even greater. I have Patricia King on the telephone and Patricia you were telling before we went on the air that you had occasion to ask questions of Dr. Oral Roberts and have him pray for you just before he was promoted to heaven. Tell me some things about that.
Patricia: Sure you know Dr. Oral Roberts was such an awesome man of God. Just before he was going to be with the Lord he had an awareness that his time was up so he invited leaders to come and spend time with him about 20 at a time within his home. Andwe were allowed to ask him each a question that we could ask of him. And then after the question period he was going to give us all an opportunity to receive prayer and impartation from him. And we could choose any thing in his life that we saw that we would like and he would release it through faith. He really believed in the power of impartation. And so the question that I had on my heart was “How do you maintain your devotional walk; your worship time; your personal time with the Lord in the midst of being so busy?” Because in the midst of being so busy he was an author; a televangelist; you know an apostle; a creator of all kinds of different works with medical missions and universities and that. I said, “How did you keep your time with God as a priority?” He said “That was easy,” he said “That was my sacred time and my sacred place.” He said “Every day I would spend time alone with God.” And he said “No one was allowed to interrupt me when I was in that place wherever I was I would set apart a place, I would close the door and that would be my time with God. He said “My wife couldn’t get me there; my children; not even the President of the United States, my whole family knew that when I was in that place I was not to be disturbed.” And Sid he said that “It was in that place of worship and devotion with God that every creative idea of what he was called to do in his ministry it came out of that place with God.” And he said that “When God would speak to him at that place with an idea he would never have to ask him twice he would just say “Yes Lord, I will do that.” And so he said “Because it was birthed in that place of worship; he said that “There was grace upon it to execute it.” And I was just so touched by this I thought Lord “That’s what I want.” So when it was time to be prayed for my Dr. Oral Roberts he had us all down on our knees because he was sitting in a chair and his health had been failing. And he stretched out his hand and he said “What do you want?” Because we could have said anything you could have a blessing for the gift of faith I have, evangelism, miracles, healing whatever you want just say it and you could have it. And he said “What would you like?” And I said “The sacred time in the sacred time and the sacred place, and he said “What else would you like?” I said “That’s enough and that’s all.” And he laid his hand on me and I felt the lightnings of God go through me and I fell on the floor and felt this power surge through my whole body and I knew that it was a new separation of my life of my heart to embrace that sacred place; that sacred time with God as a priority in my life. And there was a real impartation of grace that empowered me during that prayer time.
Sid: Now tell me what your sacred time is like; could you kind of paint me a picture Patricia?
Patricia: Well, when I do my… like my time alone; because I think that we need to all need to walk in that sacred time and sacred place all the time. But in my alone times I love worshiping; I love talking to God; I love making decrees of His word, anything that connects me to His heart. And sometimes I can’t enter in right away because I have distractions in my mind so I find whatever works that day to keep my mind focused on Him. But I find Sid that the more time you spend that there’s kind of a tipping point that let’s say I start with reading the word of God and my mind’s a bit distracted that after about after about 10 minutes or so all of a sudden your right inside of it. There’s like this realm has been created because of your focus. If I start in worship and I start declaring His worth I might not feel that connection; but when I stay in it enough there’s this realm of presence that’s created. And one morning I was in my prayer-room and I was going through my morning devotions and that and just worshiping the Lord and I just got excited an one hour went into two, and you know I was just in a realm I could feel the presence of the Lord I was connected to His heart I knew it And I had to go to the restroom and I left the room and grabbed a coffee on my way back and when I went back into the room I could hardly wait to have some more time with the Lord because I was having all kinds of down loads and revelations. But when I walked from the hallway into the room there was a visible realm of tangible glory in the room that had been created through the worship; that had been created through the focus. And it was so thick and I’ve got white carpet in my home that the coffee I was carrying jolted and just about spilled on my white carpet.
Patricia: Because I was so shaken by the weight of the glory that was in that room and the Lord showed me that when you worship you actually create an atmosphere in the location where you worship. And so I thought “Wow we should take this to the streets, we can take this to the nations and with intentionality bring our sacred time and sacred place take it out into even places of darkness that we can create realms of glory in those places.”
Sid: But how about just in your home when one or more of the people that live in the home are creating these realms in the home it’s got to be such a sanctuary that people that walk into your home probably comment “I feel the presence of God.”
Patricia: I think that every Christian that lives in the glory will have people say that. We have people say that all the time about our home and even though workman or the gardeners or whoever says “Wow it feels good in here,” and it’s because the glory. And I remember Sid one night and we were just in our kitchen talking about the Lord and getting excited about what He had been doing. They had been out doing some witnessing and they were sharing all that God was doing and we were escalating in thanksgiving unto God and all of a sudden tangible glory came in. We actually felt the weight of His love presence and then we felt wind start blowing and fragrances came. Heavenly fragrances started coming right into the kitchen. And so that was just a created realm by talking about the Lord and His goodness and giving Him adoration.
Sid: Now, in your private worship time have you ever been taken into heaven?
Patricia: Yes, often times. I know that’s a big subject, but I believe that the word reveals the entrance of the glory that we have through the blood of Jesus Christ. So we can experience these things sovereignly as He comes to us but we can also go to Him. So in my personal devotion time daily I access His presence because it says “We can boldly come before the throne of grace.” And so by faith we can access His presence and as you by faith and engage in worshiping Him in that glory realm; then you’ll start to experience Him in that realm.
Sid: Tell me one time that you moved into that heavenly realm.
Patricia: Yeah, I was in my devotion time one day, and I have an office where I do a lot of my prayer and a lot of my worship. I was in my office one day worshiping and I was brought to a certain scripture in the Bible about wisdom. So I started meditating on the word of wisdom; thanking God for the revelation He was giving me out of it. And He said “Patricia in my realm; in the heavenly realm are many places I want to take you into a chamber in heaven called wisdom.” And so I just agreed with Him and followed the Spirit’s leading into it and then began to have vision in regards to this chamber that I referred to as “wisdom’s chamber.” Where I met with the Spirit of Wisdom” which is one of the 7 fold dimensions of the Spirit of God. And he started to speak to me insights of wisdom into something’s that I was dealing with at that time. And He started showing me different types of things that I could do out of wisdom to even resolve problems; really big things that need to be moved. So I actually went into that realm and received the insight that I needed directly from God directly from the Spirit of wisdom in that place. And it was just started through worship then meditating on the word and then He gave me the scripture and then from that He led me into that realm of wisdom.
Sid: Now Patricia there are people listening to us and saying “Boy I wish I could do something like that that Patricia must be a special person.” But people that have taken your mentoring course on “Create your world which include the 5 CD’s” which are actually 15 lessons; the interactive workbook and the book “Create Your World” are they moving in these realms; are they prospering in business; are they having the glory in their home; are they getting supernatural wisdom?”
Patricia: Absolutely, the book and the teachings will give you instruction on how you can step into all of those things. And so hearing the word will give you the faith and then acting on the word will make your faith alive.
Sid: If you’re not red hot for the Messiah you’re lukewarm and you should read about yourself in the book of Revelation. Jesus said “If you’re not hot or cold I will vomit you out of my mouth.” Well, the only, the only, the only, the only position to be in is red hot for the Messiah. My guest is Jonathan Bernis you’re probably familiar with him from his television show “Jewish Voice with Jonathan Bernis.” Jonathan and I have been friends for over 30 years. On yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about the most amazing difference so few Christians understand this of the Jewish or Hebrew understanding of the word mediate. Would you explain that again Jonathan?
Jonathan: I will Sid, there’s two kinds of meditation; actually there’s two words in Hebrew. The one that’s similar to the Christian concept of meditation is the idea that we are using our mind to reflect on the scripture. The word is sekha and it has to do with rehearsing in one’s mind or thoughts. This is the Christian concept; but the Hebrew concept is very different it’s the word haga and we get from that the Haggadah which means to tell, or retell the story of Passover. And it literally means to groan; to sigh or mutter or to speak. So while the Christian concept is derived really more from a Latin contemplation; the idea of contemplation and reflection and thought. Hebrew is the idea of speaking forth. And that’s what we find in Joshua 1:8 where Joshua was told to be strong and to be courageous and he’ll be successful if he does one thing. Meditates, confesses the word of God. He’s told to keep the word on his mouth. Not on his mind and heart but on his mouth. And so this is a very very important key Sid. We build faith when we confess the word of God; we hear it, we confess it and we hear it. And it eventually gets into our spirit and faith is released.
Sid: Well, you talk about Proverbs 18:21 “Death and life are in the power of the tongue.” It’s almost like our words are magnets of blessings or curses.
Jonathan: The absolutely are; I meet people and you can see that they are beaten down and very insecure. And when you really probe Sid you find out that they have been reinforced with negative words. They have been told by their parents “You’re no good; you’re not going to amount to anything; you’re good for nothing. And sadly they come to believe it. And it takes the power of God; it takes deliverance to break free from that. But when children are reinforced with the Word of God “You are a child of God; greater is He who is in you that he that is in the world. You can do all things through the Messiah who strengthens you.” It also brings life to them…
Sid: Give me an example of someone that you instructed to meditate. What was wrong with them and what happened to them?
Jonathan: Okay as a pastor a woman who really I was very endeared to; a very sweet woman but she suffered from terrible depression. Sid, you could see it all over her face.
Sid: How long did she have this problem?
Jonathan: Well, like the woman with the issue of blood she had suffered from this for decades; more than 20 years. She had gone to doctors, specialists, therapists. She had tried everything and she was still just covered with depression; it was interwoven into her personality. I counseled her and I counseled her, I was a relatively young pastor Sid and it went nowhere. Then the Lord spoke to me as I was praying for her and told me to do one thing. “Give her scriptures that she can begin to confess; give her a homework assignment.” And so when I met with her the next time I didn’t go through an hour of back and forth counseling and ideas and the wisdom of man. I said “Sue, Susan these are scriptures that I want you to confess.” Like “Greater is He who is in me than he who is in the world; You’re more than conquers through Him who loved us and gave Himself for us.” I gave her those scriptures; she came in the next week and said she was a different person. You could see it all over her face; she had joy; she had peace; she had been set free not by my intensive counseling but by confessing the Word of God again and again until it broke those demonic forces. Somebody just got delivered as I spoke Sid; I just felt it.
Sid: Well, I’m going to tell you something; this brand new book and it is brand new “Confessing the Hebrew Scriptures; the Lord is Peace.” Jonathan describe to me when they get this in the mail what they will receive and we’re going to pay a selection from the CD after you do that.
Jonathan: Okay, they’re going to get a beautiful hardbound coffee table book filled with gorgeous pictures that reflect peace and tranquility and rest. Shalom is an amazing word Sid that doesn’t mean just peace but it means wholeness; it means prosperity; it means wellbeing; it means to be brought to completion. Then they’ll see about 50 scriptures both Old and New Testament that have the English; below it the Hebrew. And then below that something called transliteration. This is the phonetic English of the Hebrew; and then in the back there is a CD that’s in the book; they pull the CD out and then they play the CD and they here this beautiful soft meditative music and then the confession of these scriptures in English and then in Hebrew. And what they do is they begin to confess along with the Hebrew speaker these scriptures and then they can speak perfect Hebrew without any background; without any experience; without any education.
Sid: Now I can see entire families doing this. They sit down; the little children, the mother, the father and read it in the Hebrew and listen to it in the Hebrew. And Hebrew is unlike any other language in the world; it is a supernatural language. It was prophesied, it would be restored in Israel someday. They would speak it in the streets of Judah and the cities of Israel and this has happen. But I believe that as they listen to this at night or during the day you’re taking in the word of God and it’s becoming flesh inside of you. And the days we’re living in; if you’re not speaking in your supernatural languages and if you’re not meditating on the promises of God’s word; you may go to heaven but you may go sooner than God wants you to. So Jonathan, tell me about a verse that we’re going to play in a moment.
Jonathan: Jeremiah 29; this is actually in the book. Jeremiah 29 verses 11-13 and then you can hear the CD with the music and it’s spoken in Hebrew. One of my favorite scriptures it says “For I know the thoughts that I think towards you say’s the Lord; thoughts of peace and not evil to give you a future and a hope; then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me and I will listen to you and you will seek Me and find Me when you search Me with all your heart.”
Sid: Okay, let’s hear the CD and remember you’re hearing this by a native speaking Israeli. You’re being able to read this in this amazing method that has taught Jews all over the world to instantly read Hebrew. It’s called transliteration. And you’re hearing the music and you’re hearing the words in English. And then I want you to when you go to bed at night if you’re listening to it just before you go to bed or if you’re reading it in this beautiful book guess what you’ll be dreaming about all night? You’ll be dreaming these promises. So let’s listen to it right now.
CD: Excerpt of Jeremiah 29:11 – 13.
Sid: Okay, you just heard in Hebrew and English Jeremiah 29:11-13. Jonathan, what does that verse mean to you?
Jonathan: Well Sid the context of this is that it’s a great scripture in the midst of a bad chapter. The chapter is they’re captivity in Babylon, but the Lord says “I’m not finish with you; I have a plan for you; I have a good plan for you.” And He has a plan for all of us. That word peace shalom doesn’t just mean peace Sid. Some translation’s say “My plan is to prosper you.” Shalom is prosperity; it’s God’s prosperity; not to inflict evil or rah in Hebrew upon us; but to give us a future and a hope. God has a destiny for each and every one of us. An intended destination; that’s what the Hebrew word akhareet means which you hear in the Hebrew text, that’s an expected end a destiny. He brings us to a place where we complete our purpose for this life. And hear Him say “Good and faithful servant. Well done.” Sid, how do we get to that destination? By the hearing the voice of God; by praying in other tongues, by confessing the word of God, by building faith into our spirit. So that we can do what we see Him doing; it gives us ears to hear and eyes to see.
Sid: And God is speaking to me just as Jonathan was speaking; I mean there is such an anointing on the Hebrew language. People with arthritis in their fingers if you’ll begin to move your fingers you’ll see the pain is gone. And people with back problems and neck problems if you’ll just move your back; bend over. If you’ll just move your head side to side you’ll find that you’re totally healed in Jesus Name.
Sid: You know what I’m reminded of I have Tommy Welchel in the studio right now and Tommy is the last living link to the Azusa Street Revival. Because as a young man he got radically saved by; what did you call those women with the buns in their hair; what were they called?
Sid: They were holiness woman with the buns in their hair.
Sid: And he got radically saved; radically set free from drugs and alcohol and they knew that God was going to have him at a certain time about 100 years after the revival start talking about it. Because they prophesied that there would be a greater revival. Even William Seymour prophesied; that’s the man that started that God used to start the revival of Azusa Street. Prophesied about 100 years later there would be a new move of God’s Spirit and that they would need this information. And they poured themselves into Tommy; knowing that he was going to say this. But you know what I find interesting as I’m reading your materials here? There was certain people in the revival that had great faith for specific miracles. Like there was one person that liked to pray for people that were bound to wheelchairs; tell me about that person.
Tommy: Sister Carney and she set the Carney rule. Well, she’d come up to someone in a wheelchair; she’d pick up their legs and put the flaps up. That was a lack of faith if you didn’t because she knew that they were going to get healed. No doubt in her mind; she’d pray for them and they got healed.
Sid: And then tell me about some other specialties; how about the person that liked to pray for a bad or missing teeth.
Tommy: That’s Sister Lucille, she was a little bitty woman 4’10” and at one time the secretary to Amy McPherson. Now Lucille…
Sid: Now all these people I just read about are the true heroes of the great move of God 100 years ago in America.
Sid: That’s neat; so tell me.
Tommy: She would tell me about different… back then they didn’t have as good a hygiene as we have now keeping the mouth clean and everything. And she said she brought handkerchiefs with her to wipe stuff off of their gums. And I said, “Lucille was there ever anyone that had no teeth at all?” And she said “Oh yeah, those are my favorites.” And I said, “Why?” She said, that she would take her finger put it over where the tooth was press down, pray and let that new tooth push her finger up. She could have prayed for all 32 teeth, not Lucille one at a time and let them push her finger back up. It was kind of a game with her.
Sid: What about people that had gum disease and…
Tommy: Some of the gums would be missing teeth very badly crocked; she would pray for them and wipe corruption off their teeth, boils and infected. Pray for them and they’d be instantly healed.
Sid: Tell me about the person that liked to pray for blind people.
Tommy: He’s the sad sack; he’s the one that kept crying about the loss of the Shekinah glory. But he still; I couldn’t quite understand his sadness because there’s two blind people at Pisgah that Bill prayed for that got healed right in front of my eyes; I saw them.
Sid: So some of these saints even though the revival lifted after 3 ½ years they still had the anointing to pray for miracles.
Tommy: Fifty years later.
Sid: Fifty years later.
Tommy: I would set and watch many of them. Sister Dun Dees. She became Sister Beck. A couple from England came over from a very ill child that had a blood… I would assume leukemia. Well, they came looking for Sister Lucille, the Greenish had brought them over there. And they said they were looking for Sister Beck because she loved to pray for children. And I went and found Sister Beck and said “There are some people from England; they’ve got a baby that you’ve got to pray for.” I got her by the hand and I believe her husband is following behind her and by then I had been around Pisgah quite a while and I knew them like they were my mother and father. And I bring them out there and she says “Give me the child.” And they gave her the child and they started praying for it and all of a sudden, the child had a blanket on his face. And she looked up and smiled at me and she could see the baby and handed the baby back to the mother of the child and said “The child is healed.” And the mother took the baby and sister Beck went into the church.” Well, I wanted to see the baby. She pulled the blanket up and here was a perfectly well baby. All the coloring had come back into it; it was just gooing and it was hungry.
Sid: What about tumors? Was there anyone that really loved to pray for tumors?
Tommy: Yes, one of the most astonishing ones was Brother Lankford. A woman had come up with a tumor; a very large tumor on her back. You could see it through the dress; couldn’t hide it. And he laid hands on her and prayed for it and that tumor with his hand on it started shrinking and within seconds it was gone. He’s also the one that prayed for; we called it harelips; palate lips would be missing. During his time there at Azusa over 100 he prayed for these missing teeth.
Sid: Cleft lips.
Tommy: Cleft lips were instantly supernaturally healed right in front of you.
Sid: Now tell me about the anointing that Goldie had for tumors.
Tommy: Sister Goldie, her main was tumors with growths that came all over. You’ve seen people with growths with tumors sticking out all over their bodies.
Sid: Yes, I have.
Tommy: She even started bringing a dust pan and a towel to sweep them up in.
Tommy: Because she had prayed for them and they’d fall off right there and she’d sweep them up in a little dust pan, put them in a towel and throw them away. And I said “Sister Goldie now you mainly went for.” She said, “I just seem to have a burden for them.” She said she had a few growths herself that God took off at Azusa. So…
Sid: That sure beats plastic surgery.
Tommy: Sure does.
Sid: Now tell me about the children; were they used in miracles; children of Azusa Street?
Tommy: Ralph Riggs one of the ones in 1914 with the founding of the Assemblies of God he wasn’t quite 12 and one of my favorite stories there. He had a man that had come at about 6’4” a big man; dog drunk, slurring. Well, Ralph didn’t really want to but God said to go pray for him. So he went up there and he said “You come here to pray for?” He said “Well, they said God would working miracles;” he could see the man was blind and he had more compassion on him. So he said “Well, let’s pray.” The man got instantly healed. Later on even in my hometown was a church of the Assemblies of God that that man founded.
Sid: Hm. I imagine a lot of these people that God uses from Azusa Street went on to start great works.
Sid: And great congregation; even denominations.
Sid: Okay, tell me about I understand the children use to play in the glory.
Tommy: Now, that was Ralph Riggs and C.W. Ward when that Shekinah glory would fill the building. He said “You couldn’t see more than 10 foot away from you it got so thick. And he said that him and Ralph for a while would play hid and seek until mommas’ found out about it and put a stop to it.
Sid: (Laughing) They would hid in the glory; but can you imagine what was happening to them to be playing in the glory? I mean do you really believe that kind of glory is coming back?
Tommy: Why not? I’ve seen a man myself in one of Steve Souters meetings he had his hands stuck up in the air playing the organ with one hand. And his had stuck up in the air and I couldn’t see the hand! It was stuck up the cloud was up in the air and I couldn’t see in the hand because Steve says “Where’s it at Brother Tommy?” And I said “Up there see Jimmy up there up on the platform.” He said, “I see it; just a minute God told me everybody with back problems come up here and be healed.” Sid 30 people came up and 30 people got healed.
Sid: So you’re saying that this same glory has gotten on you when you minister.
Sid: Have you prayed for people and the glory has gotten on them and they can pray for people?
Tommy: Oh yes, several. One little girl in Banning, California; she’s 13 years old. There 5 churches got together and had a meeting of young people; youth pastors. One of them had a cast on his knee; he had injured it in a ball game. I said “Listen I’m not going to pray for them; I want you to pray and if God tells you, you come down here and pray for them.” I’d seen this little girl; she looked 10 but she was 13. A glow around her and I believe that was the glory. She finally she got up and walked down there laid hands and prayed for him and he got so excited that he got some people bust that cast off; even got up dancing all over the church. That little girl I finally got them to bring her to me and I said “Sweetheart how old are you?” She said “Thirteen.” And I said “Look me in the eyes; you can do that anytime anywhere.” And she had a puzzeled look, “Anytime, anywhere?” I said “Yes.” She went to her school, she is what the call a towel girl in the football games. You see these little girls running.
Tommy: That’s what she done. Well the quarterback got injured; they even had him on the gurney. She walked up and says “I believe in divine healing would you like me to pray for you?” And he went “Yeah.” She prayed for him and he got instantly healed; the next play he would…
Sid: You know I’m getting sick of the news that I’m seeing lately on television. Can you imagine if the news were covering that particular football game or covering what you’re ready to do?
Sid: I have on the telephone Doug Jones. Doug has been a professor at Rhema Bible School for over 20 years. He was the head of the healing school for 9 years. He traveled a lot with Dr. Kenneth Hagin. I have to make a public confession, I move through supernatural words of wisdom and knowledge, and it’s very seldom when I minister in a public setting that people are not healed. But I have had more than my shares of disappointments of people that have stood on the word of God, called Word of Faith Teaching, or Faith in God’s Word Teaching. I am a 100% convinced there’s healing in the atonement; I’m a 100% convinced God’s not a respecter of persons; I’m a 100 convinced that God wants everyone to be healed, but I’ve had a number of disappointments. Layer upon layer of disappointment, I will never back off of my position of God’s healing in the atonement; God’s healing God’s word. I can’t back off of that! I have to tell you I got a hold of 2 of Doug Jones books on healing. One is called “Understanding the Healing Power of God” the other, “Positioning Yourself to Receive Healing.” I tell you that light bulbs went on. I see where I personally have been missing it, and if I’ve been missing it how about you? You know I go to a Benny Hinn meeting and I see half a dozen people get out of wheelchairs, and praise God those are wonderful miracles, but what about the 500 go back home the same way they came? I’m interested in them; I’m interested in them appropriating their healing. So this is why I want you to eaves drop on my conversation with Doug Jones. Doug I have to be candid with you, I just was I’m not seeing the results that are in the Bible. I believe that you have uncovered so many keys I have to believe the best insight you got was was in running the healing school connected with Rhema Bible School in which people with life threatening diseases came from all over the world to be healed. You must have learned a lot.
Doug: I learned a lot during those times. Ministering healing Sid, day in, day out, 5 days a week, Monday – Friday, almost every week of the year for 9 solid years, and you’re going to stumble on something’s just automatically just doing that.
Sid: I mean I have to tell you, I feel so almost dumb after reading your books and the light bulbs go on. But it was almost like a… When I had so much failure for so many people it was almost there was a fog over my thinking.
Sid: It’s like the anointing on your books just opened it up (Laughing)
Doug: Yeah, yeah very definitely so. Well you know as well as I do Sid, that the Bible says very plainly “We’re being destroyed for a lack of knowledge.” In Isaiah chapter 5 verse 13 it says “My people have gone into captivity because they have no knowledge.” It’s very clear to us that truth must be revealed to us before freedom can be enjoyed. You know John 8:32 “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” So for me ministering day in and day out to the sick I discovered… I thought for years that unbelief was the big issue. I thought that unbelief was the number one reason why people were failing to receive they’re healing. But Sid as I studied the word of God I began to realize that unbelief, the very nature, the very core of unbelief is rejection. Anytime you see unbelief mentioned in the Bible in most cases you’re going to discover the ingredient of rejection present. Thomas hearing that Jesus is alive all of a sudden he says “I will not believe!” There’s an ingredient of rejection. He heard but when he heard he rejected what he heard as truth, that’s unbelief. It’s impossible Sid to be in unbelief about something in which you have never heard that’s ignorance. If you have never heard about it you can’t be in unbelief about it because you’re ignorant of it. Ignorance and unbelief are two different things. Unbelief comes into your life when you hear something and you reject it as truth. So I began to realize that about unbelief and I looked back into the people that I had ministered to and I thought to myself “Now wait now, these individuals are hearing the word of God, they’ve got their Bibles open, they’re taking notes, they’re nodding their heads yes… I mean they’re so thrilled with what they’re hearing they’re buying 5 tapes of the same service and passing them out to people that were not there. They were accepting what they were hearing as truth. They couldn’t be in unbelief about it because they’re receiving it with joy.” So I began to realize “Now wait now, if it’s not unbelief as the number one reason why people are failing receive their healing, then what could be the number one reason?” I’ve come to this conclusion Sid it’s ignorance.
Sid: But wait a second in this country in the United States of America we have more Bibles per square inch, more Christian television, Christian radio… how could it be ignorance?
Doug: Well that’s the interesting issue, and that’s a great question. There’s ignorance about two arenas. I heard the Lord say this to me and since then I’ve heard other people say the same thing. You teach the God side first then teach the man side it makes the man side a whole lot easier.” Sid there is a God side to healing; there is a man side to healing. If we’re ignorant of either arena, then that’s going to cause us difficulty in obtaining our healing through faith. Now I’ve seen people who are ignorant of the God side and so they’re incapable of doing the man side. I’ve seen people who are knowledgeable about the God side, but they’re having difficulty doing the man side. There’s a God side and there’s a man side to every subject in the Bible. There’s a God side to walking in love because in order for me to be able to love you, or to love my fellow man, I must first of all know how He first loved me. John 13:34 “A new commandment I give unto you that you love one another as I have loved you.” There’s the key right there learning how He loves me helps me to learn how to love you. “Husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it.” Well if I’m going to love my wife which is the man side, the duty of man, the responsibility of man, then I have to be knowledgeable bout how He love me because I am to love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. So there is a God side to healing, and there’s a man side. What I’ve discovered is this, is that there are 4 issues about God that we need to have within our grasp; we need to have within our belief system in order to be healed by faith. Let’s just go ahead and mention them just very briefly then I’ll let you go the direction you want to go. There’s 4 issues about God we need to know:
We need to know above all else that it is God’s will for us to be well.
Once we know that it is God’s will for us to be well, we must know that God’s a giver. What good is it to know that He wants us to have something but then not know that He will give it to us upon approach? We can talk about that later on.
The third thing we need to know about our God is that one method through which God gives is through the laying on of hands. What’s so marvelous about the word of God is that it reveals to us that God gives healing to people through a number of different methods like laying on of hands. You can call your pastor up and have them anoint you with oil in the name of the Lord, and pray the prayer of faith and the Bible says “The Lord will raise you up.” You can have handkerchief or an apron placed upon your body, and there’s some other methods too.
What He gives when hands are laid upon you is the healing power of God.
So the 4 things about our God that we need to know is:
That it is His will.
That God’s a giver.
That God gives through hands (that’s one method).
What He gives is healing power.
Now the ignorance issue comes into this play Sid and that is this, is what I discovered was is the majority of our people, they were knowledgeable about the fact that it is God’s will for us to be well. They’ve been taught that subject, they’ve been taught very well that God wants them well. You know over the 9 years that I taught at healing school I don’t think I taught on the fact that it was God’s will for them to be well. Maybe but 2 or 3 times because the people that were coming to me were coming from churches who had taught their people well that “God want’s you well. That it’s the will of God for you to be well.” AND… they also taught them about the fact that one way God gives is through hands. But what I found that they were ignorant about is this issue about God a giver, and they were ignorant about what God gives and that’s healing power.