Sid: I’m looking at my brother Jeff Burke and I’m thinking about all the things that he went through. Jeff was called into the ministry at 21; he was a Baptist preacher at 21 years of age. He comes from a family; he father was a minister. But he didn’t see the supernatural; he didn’t see what he read in the New Testament. And he thought; maybe it’s all fake and his father said “Well, but these people called Pentecostals, Charismatic’s they speak in tongues and they seem to have miracles but tongues isn’t of God so we’re going to not touch that.” So eventually Jeff left the ministry; he got involved in witchcraft; got involved in drugs and he thought his power was making him very successful and he did rise up to quite a level of success in the business world. Then his parents get Spirit-Filled and start praying together for Jeff and praying in unknown tongues. Make a long story short the bottom fell out with Jeff he lost everything. He tried to commit suicide he couldn’t even do that. On the same night he took a whole bottle of sleeping pills; his mother was praying for him. And he could not could he not only die, he couldn’t even fall asleep with a whole bottle… he was up for 2 days. And a voice said for him to return home when he had nowhere to go and he called his dad and his dad picked him up and he returned home. And then he got a book on praising God and he started trying to praise God and he heard the demonic voices. He didn’t know what to do about it; he went to his parents his parents set up a deliverance meeting. He went to a place that were supposed to be expert in deliverance. He didn’t know that they had only prayed for one other person before him. And they started praying for you Jeff and what happened?
Jeff: When they sat me down and began to pray for me one of the things I knew the most and remember the most my face changed; it just changed…
Sid: It just got distorted.
Jeff: And out of the corner of my mouth this huge cloud of smoke came. And…
Sid: Did anyone else see this smoke?
Jeff: Oh yeah; both of them saw it and they both said “Wow, did you see that?” And again this is only the second time and so but they took me through the whole thing and there was 26 manifestations that happened during that time.
Sid: So 26 demons left you.
Sid: That’s a lot.
Jeff: That is a lot.
Sid: There’s no wonder you had difficulty functioning. Now when all of those demons were gone; what was going on inside of you, how did you feel Jeff?
Jeff: Well, they stood me up and they said “How do you feel?” And I said “Well, I fell like somebody scrubbed me with a brush on the inside.” You see it’s like a wire brush and it scrubbed; and I’d been scrubbed really clean. And I said “I just feel really clean on the inside of me and they said “Well, the house has been swept clean so we’re going to pray.” So they prayed for me to be filled with the Holy Spirit and I was.
Sid: Did you speak I unknown tongues?
Jeff: I did speak in tongues, yes praise the Lord.
Sid: You know Mishpochah, that’s the mercy of God. And here remember he had such a desire to move in the power and the supernatural of God. And no one was willing to show him the truth so he ended up in a lie and almost lost his life. I tell you you would have died hadn’t your parents hadn’t prayed for you.
Jeff: I most definitely think I would have.
Sid: When did the real gifts of the Holy Spirit start operating through you? Tell, me the first time you realized that God was using you?
Jeff: Well, praise the Lord we went to a prayer meeting and there was a little girl that was 11 years old that had moved in her life. And my heart something rose up and she had a foster mom; because nobody else wanted her. And I said “Do you mind if I pray for the little girl?” And she said “Oh no.” So we prayed for this little girl that had never moved in her life her mom got up and walked across the room and she picked her head up and turned her head and followed her all across the room. This little girl that had never moved 11 years old; that had been fed like a baby had been fed with a bottle ever since she’s been born. And all of a sudden she had moved for the first time in her life. And my heart was in a place where I’m going that’s the greatest, if I may say it this way, “That’s the greatest high I’ve ever experienced; no drug ever gave me that.” Inside my heart I’m going “Wow, if God can do; if God can do that then there’s other things that He can do.” And so He began to do amazing things; amazing things. One of the things that happened is I had a need for $420 that I had to go to court and pay. But the Lord spoke to me He says “Don’t ask anybody for this” He said “I’m just going to show you I’m going to make provision.” And so I went out and got in the car and when I went out and got in the car and I put it in reverse I felt like I’d gave the Lord plenty of time to do something.” So I said “I got to go.” And I only had a quarter of a tank of gas, or very little gas. And so I’m backing out and pull out of the driveway; the man was running down the sidewalk and he comes running up and knocks on the door on my window. So I rolled my window down and he said “Jeff forgive me God told me to bring this to you this morning.” And so he hands me an envelope. And so he turns and leaves and I open up the envelop and there’s $420 in there. Now I only had $6 in my pocket; so I put the $6 in gas and so I drove 150 – 200 miles to the town where I had to go to. I went in and I actually paid the $420 that I needed. When I paid what I needed to pay and I started back and I look and I’m setting on empty and I said “Lord, how am I going to get home” I said “But you’re the same God that got me here can get me back.” And so I began to pray; I said “What would you like me to pull over and somebody come knocking on my window?” He said “No.”
Sid: Your totally believing now. (Laughing)
Jeff: So He said “Just look at you gas hand.” So I looked at my gas hand it was setting on E and it went from E to a ¼ of a tank.
Sid: There are people listening to us right now and their saying “You’re making this up; because those things don’t happen to them” But you know what Jeff, I believe what you’re describing is normal Bible Christianity. And what they’re describing is nothing more than dead tradition.
Sid: I have to tell you; you really provoke me to jealousy the way God tells you even specific people’s names. Give me an example.
Jeff: I was in Homer, Alaska and sitting there and I saw a little girl she was about 17 years old. She was sitting by a lady and the lady turned out to be her mother; but the mother was a hold up a child. But God spoke to me and He said “This is her child.” And she’s moved from Oklahoma because the child is born out of wedlock. And she’s come so that her parents could help her raise the child. He spoke to me and I said “Lord I don’t want me to call that out publicly.” And He said “No son, this is what I want you to do; I want you go and tell her that Aaron is not an accident; and He really will thunder.” And I said “Well, Lord it sounds strange but I’ll go for it. And so I went to her and and I said “Mam look, the Lord told me to tell you this that Aaron is not an accident and that He really will thunder.” Now she came to me after the meeting was over and she said “Brother Jeff I moved here from Oklahoma and she said “I really moved so that my parents could help me raise my child because the child that my mother’s holding is my child.” He was born out of wedlock; she said “It’s so good to know that he is not an accident because his name is Aaron. And God said “That Aaron is not an accident.” But she said “Brother Jeff you know what the special thing is; she said I named him a very very unusual middle name.” She said “His middle name is Thunder.” And God said “Aaron’s not an accident that he really will thunder.”
Sid: Now Jeff there’s no way that could be a probability. There’s no the devils going to do that to give encouragement to Christians. It’s got to be so exciting for God to use you like that.
Jeff: It’s always a blessing.
Sid: I mean you literally can change someone’s destiny; their life; everything.
Jeff: Thank you.
Sid: Now when you hear these things are they thoughts or is it like an audible voice. Is it a picture?
Jeff: I call it kind of like a ticker tape. It’s like God will give me one word; maybe a name or one phrase or even sometimes I do see a picture. And when this happens it’s like this tape begins to run and I’m like seeing what God is saying. So I’m speaking what’s on this tape. That’s the closes way I know how to describe it.
Sid: Have you ever done this publicly and it was either wrong or people didn’t say someone’s name was there?
Jeff: I was in a place in Malaysia and I felt like God gave me name called Paris. And so I said “Paris; whose Paris.” And of course nobody responded and so as nobody responded and so I just kind a left it there. And afterwards this man comes up to me and says “Well, I think maybe you just pronounced it differently than I would pronounce it.” And so I spelled it and he said “Well, that’s my name but I pronounce it Parees” and so then was able to minister to him the things that God told me to minister to him.
Sid: Now Jeff beyond that which was that you just pronounced it wrong have you ever been wrong on a name or something like that?
Jeff: At this point I haven’t that I know of.
Sid: Well, that sounds good to me. I want you to open yourself up to minister on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: Well my guest David Herzog he is I don’t know what’s stronger than red hot, he maybe white-hot (Laughing) for the Messiah. But David you just got back from Finland and you said the glory of God was at a higher level than you’ve ever seen it in that nation before. Tell me what’s going on.
David: Yeah, its the national move of God on the verse of an awakening that’s happening everybody knows about it in the church. Lutheran, Baptist, Catholics… I mean secular we get the whole country live to the whole country but the glory was so thick. Not just the miracles and the signs and the salivations; that was all awesome but there was such a level of glory. It changed my life; I’ve been doing this for over 20 years and I’ve been wrecked for God in a good way since this trip. And the love of God on a level we’ve never experienced before.
Sid: Now when you say the love of God what do you mean?
David: Supernatural love was so strong for God and one for the other. It was like oozing out of everybody on the team. We were on this bus traveling every day 6 hours a day hitting different cities, tearing down, going to the next city. And it was like the book of Acts, literally it felt like we would be willing to die for one another and for the Lord. It was such an intimacy with the Lord that it spilled over into relationships. I think that was one of the huge keys, besides of course that they love Israel. A lot of government officials love Israel, the church love Israel. So it was like all of the elements were there unity, love miracles, Israel, sacrifice. No one was doing it for their own self; it was like the book of Acts no one thought anything was their own they just did it for the Lord.
Sid: Well David this is the first interview we’ve done in awhile and I can sense on the radio the level of glory is stronger than the last time. I guess you just got the overflow from just getting back from Finland. Now the reason that I’m interviewing you is we’ve put together a package called “The Power and the Glory Package.” The reason we did this is I want everyone to walk in the glory of God. Kind of bottom line David; what’s the advantage of people walking in the glory of God as opposed to the way that they are right now?
David: Well a lot of people run off just their gifting or their anointing and they get burned out jut doing their gift and their anointing. Their pulling it from, I call it “Their battery within,” you know they charge up their own little spirit man. But the glory you’re actually accessing it from heavens realm, you’re not just depleting your own reserves. So it’s like basically like Peter. He’s walking down the street and his shadows healing the sick; he’s not necessarily one and one pushing to get each person delivered or healed. But you live in such a realm of heaven’s glory that God’s hand starts to get stretched out on people without you lifting a finger. It’s just a whole another dimension.
Sid: Alright if someone was to mention to you “Oh come on now David you have a special gift everyone can’t just move in that special gift” what would you say?
David: No they can, everybody can have that. The glory is for everybody that’s believer once you’re a believer you have access to it. Just a lot of time “My people perish for lack of knowledge,” they don’t understand how to live in it. That’s why we’re talking about it and writing books and traveling. And once they live in it it’s almost like they’re born again again; it’s like a whole new dimension of God that they never knew that their whole Christian life gets exciting again. Or maybe it got dull in routine; it’s like every morning they can’t wait to wake up and just be with God and see what He’s going to do.
Sid: Now, in the glory some very unusual things have happened. It’s seems as though that once the glory invades a meeting or you walking in a mall, whatever you say it happens instantly. Give me an example.
David: Okay, yeah look like in our meetings for instance and just when the glory’s very high I’ll begin to give words of knowledge and usually the moment I speak the word instantly. Like we had blind eyes open, deaf ears; just someone is getting healed of this bomb, bomb, bomb and it starts to happen. Or in the store; I’m in the grocery store here in Sedona and I’m buying something at the health food store and the lady goes “Oh, my backs hurting.” And I go “Really, hey let me pray for you.” She didn’t ask who I was or anything, I didn’t lay hands on her I just spoke to the back and I said “In Jesus Name back be healed.” And you could hear the bones start to crackle and everybody freaked out and the baggers that were bagging the groceries ran and the other aisles ran to see what was going on. And she said “How did you do that that’s amazing.” And I said “I didn’t Jesus did it and he’s the highest power source.” And she said “Well, in this town everyone worships something but we don’t see stuff that easy, that fast; and you did it nonchalantly like casually like it was no big deal.” So the higher the glory the easier things like this begin to happen.
Sid: I happen to believe that this is God’s moment for a spectacular outpouring of His Spirit, but people that are not equipped to walk in the glory are going to be like. They’ll be on AM and God’s on FM and we want to switch everyone to the God channel. So David why when you understand the glory are you concerned about proper nutrition? We entitled the package “The Power and the Glory.” The glory we understand; the power is your new book called “Jump Start Your Way to Healthy Living.” The miracle of super-foods; new weight loss discoveries, anti-aging techniques. I mean I’ve never seen one book so jamb packed. Now I’m all in favor of alternative health I take vitamins and I believe in this, but why you you’re walking in such glory why would you be doing this type of thing?
David: I noticed over the years I’ve been doing this over 20 years. As you get older which we all are your bodies start to get a little sluggish and I noticed that when I’m tired and I don’t feel in shape physically it does affect me spiritually. Because I can’t pray as long, I can’t travel to certain places I want to go; I want to go to the jungles and I can’t. And I want to be able to do all things and there is… and a lot of the Bible does talk about your health. And so all I noticed was when I start changing my health not only do I feel better physically but something in my spirit begin to open up. I can’t explain it other than that. As I line up my spirit with my spirit on the same level more things began to open. Kind of like Daniel when he went on that vegetable fast for 21 days he was walking in a level of God but when he did that it propelled him into another dimension of God’s Glory and visitation.
Sid: Well I’ll tell you what I love about your new book you cover everything in that in one book. And there’s so many things I want to ask you questions about, but something very few people have ever heard of and that is you talk about body cleanses. What is that?
David: Well a lot of times over the years if you live in America you eat foods that are really toxic, and hormones in the meats, and pharmaceuticals, and a lot of that stuff stays in your body for like years and years and years. And so a lot of times people can start eating healthy or raw diets or organic but it’s kind of like the pipes are blocking the pipes; you got to clear the pipes first. So I know people that try to lose weight but they’ve got like years of fecal matter in their intestines and their colon so they need to cleanse first to get all the junk out. And then the body starts flowing normally, you eat fruit or you eat vegetables or whatever you eat.
Sid: But there are people listening to us right now and they say “I don’t want to do that!” What would you say to them?
David: Well, it’s your choice; but some people won’t live as long because of that. Most sickness I’ve heard it said before, it happens in the colon. A lot of stuff happen in the colon; a lot of minister I know even in the glory supernatural die really young because they are not healthy. And I asked the Lord about this and I said “How can that be?” And the Lord said they obeyed my spiritual laws so I move in their meetings, but My physical laws of rest, food and health which are in the word. It’s like the law of gravity you jump off the building you fall.
Sid: Well, in my opinion I used to lay hands on people I would get a word of knowledge and I would say everyone with a back problem come up. And I would lay hands on people and almost everyone would get healed. But every once and a while I would lay hands on someone that was grossly overweight and I can tell you what I thought I didn’t say it; but what I thought is “God’s going to heal you but I believe tomorrow you’ll still have a problem unless you lose the weight.”
David: Exactly, you can get miracle but now God wants us to maintain our health and not every year half to come back for the same problem. So it’s one thing to get a miracle; it’s another thing to keep your miracle and that’s kind of what the books about.
Sid: Now you talk about super-foods that give power and energy. Tell me there’s one that you talk about that intrigues me, the avocado.
David: The avocado is a really; it’s like my friend. (Laughing)
David: The avocado is wonderful because it gives you a satisfied feeling. A lot of people they’re hungry and they say “Oh, I need more meat, I need more protein.” A lot of times you’re just craving the healthy fats. You eat an avocado and a lot of times you don’t have that same craving for a lot of meat. And it’s an amazing food; it clears your skin, it helps with your cholesterol levels. It does so many things that’s in the book that explains. And a lot of people that are on raw diets or vegetarian diets they realize that avocados are one of their friends. It helps them to maintain a healthy diet.
Sid: You know I was talking to a friend of mine that’s a medical doctor and he said that God gave us an amazing body. If we would just change the way we eat we would have energy, we would not have stress, we would not be overweight, we would not… I mean he says that “If you change your life style enough you won’t have cancer, you won’t have heart trouble.” I mean your whole body starts operating the way God wanted it to.
David: Oh it’s amazing, I mean like in the book I have a 21 day diet, when they start doing it. The start doing the juicing, they start doing the raw foods and different kinds of foods depending on where they’re at. Even like within the first 24 hours people start feeling amazing physically. Their skin clears up, they do it for 3 days and start dropping the weight. Then something happens in their spirit man; when they start losing weight, losing the toxins somehow spiritually there’s something that opens up and they get more excited about God. They want to start praying; kind of like when you go to a nature place; let’s say you’re from New York, and then you’re in Colorado in the mountains you feel more spiritual when you’re in God’s creation that God created. When you eat natural healthy raw foods something also happens, you feel different than just eating toxic…
Sid: Whoa, whoa, whoa our time is slipping away and I’m so interested in what David speaking about.
Sid: My guest by way of telephone at his home in Atlanta, Georgia is Dr. Howard Morgan. I’m interviewing him on his “Leaves from the Olive Tree.” I’ll tell you something Howie I know your heart and your heart is love and God’s kingdom.
Dr. Morgan: Amen.
Sid: I believe we are touching on such nerves right now.
Dr. Morgan: Yes.
Sid: I’ve got to pose a question to you. There are some churches, not many, but there are some churches that are really equipping the saints for the work of ministry. They take people out into shopping malls, they witness, they get people saved, but they have zero understanding of Israel, the Jewish people, they just think that’s just another nation, or worse the church has replaced them. But they are discipling, they are equipping, what would you say to them?
Dr. Morgan: Well I would say to them this thing about Israel is not a human thing. I would say to them “Let’s go back and see what the prophets and what Paul particularly wrote in Romans chapter 11. We always start with Ephesians 2 and Romans chapter 11, and say “Has God rejected His people which He foreknew?” No! Then we go right through about God’s call upon the church, as we said in an earlier broadcast about the call of the church to provoke natural Israel to spiritual jealousy. How God has called the church to the Jew first then to the nations, and how God is going to restore what He is doing. Restoring the land, restoring the people and the essential key in all of this is that the Jewish people coming to faith in Yeshua is the final end last event before the trumpet is blown and Messiah returns. Because He said “You’ll not see me again until you say ‘Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord.’” So if the Jewish people, who Paul writes “If their rejection of Messiah meant riches for the nations watch how their receiving of the Messiah be but life from the dead.” If we want to see life from the dead, the resurrection, if we want to see the Lord Jesus return we have a responsibility Biblically to provoke natural Israel to spiritual jealousy, that’s why we’re raising up disciples – spirit filled disciples who can move in love and power. So we can say to our Jewish friends, and our Jewish relatives “Look at what your Messiah has done in my life. Look at what your Messiah has done in their life.”
Sid: Okay flip-side is we know about the blessings, we know about the call. Romans 11:11 says “Salvation has come to Gentile [literally] to provoke the Jew to jealousy.” So that is literally turning their back on their God given call. What is the judgment that might come on a church that might be in replacement theology, or just ignoring it?
Dr. Morgan: It’s written right there in Romans 11, where Paul writes “If you become arrogant against the branches, you will be cutoff because it is their roots that support you.” That cutting off is exactly what happened Sid, they were cut off from the anointed roots, the anointing stopped flowing, the signs and the wonders and the miracles stopped flowing. The whole Greco-Roman world view and philosophies came into the church. The church became institutional, it became theatrical, it became manipulative, controlling, and power hungry, and political. It stopped evangelizing and raising up disciples. It stopped mentoring new people, it stopped everything that the Bible says that the church is supposed to do and became another religion that we have Christianity, and I…
Sid: Okay I have wrote a book on this subject, you have written a book on this subject it’s in the wind. If there’s something new coming I call it the One New Man, or the One New Race, coming from Ephesians the 2nd chapter.
Dr. Morgan: Right.
Sid: Describe to me what the Bible says this new vehicle called the “Body of Messiah” or the “church” which is not the building it’s the people.
Dr. Morgan: Yes.
Sid: Should look like, should function. How should it function?
Dr. Morgan: It looks like the tribes of Israel worshipping the God of Israel around the fire of God. It looks like that anointing flowing through everybody’s life; it looks like people loving each other, helping each other grow; it looks like people doing works of service; it looks like people listening to the Holy Spirit, words of knowledge, words of wisdom being common place, signs and miracles being common place that this is the children’s bread. How common is that? Jesus said “The children’s bread is healing” and everything the promises of the New Testament for the river of God that it is not a trickle or a drop here or there, but literally a river of living water flowing through our lives. We’ve got to move away from the system of going to the service to coming into a family environment. Father’s raising up their sons and daughters to do the work of the ministry. Parents relating to one another, elders sitting at the gate, oh Sid, elders sitting at the gate of a city where there is one church in the city. “We’re not competing, we’re not territorial, we’re saying ‘How can we help each other raise everybody up into the maturity?’ If they’re not your people and my people, they’re God’s people. We’re shepherds over one church. How can we help everybody as elders at the gate come to maturity, how can we help every marriage, and every family, and every assembly wherever they are meeting because they are all part of the one church?” It’s a whole shift of minds that have changed that we are really one nation. We have tribes that the Lord assigns us to, clans and families. You know we relate to different people more directly than we relate to everybody. To other people we have indirect relationships, but we’re all about the same goal Sid. We’re all about the same purpose, and bringing the gospel to the nation.
Sid: Okay, there is a new phenomena that I can’t recall in my over 30 years of walking with the Lord, and that is church dropouts. In many cities there are more Christians not going to church…
Dr. Morgan: Yes.
Sid: Than going to church. I never remember a time like this, and they say “Well my church isn’t willing to change. I hung in there I prayed.” So what should this dropout do?
Dr. Morgan: Well you know we’re helping people… we say to them “Listen” they said “If I can’t go back to that meeting anymore. I can’t go back and be grieved any longer.” I say to them “Open your home and start making disciples. If you don’t know how to make a disciple here’s what you do. Pour your love into somebody. We in our ministry are actually helping people in Britain where the Lord has opened doors for us. In America we’re helping new congregations rise up by encouraging people to allow the flow of revelation to come through and praying for people. We don’t have the answers, we know the One who does have the answers.
Sid: Okay I have an idea. Why don’t you start just by inviting your family on a Friday night, a Saturday morning, a Sunday morning, a Sunday night. That’s between you and the Holy Spirit start with your family then add a couple of brothers and sisters, and aunts and uncles. Then add a couple of neighbors, and take the Bible and start following it. God gave me a that I have been using now since 1976 it’s called Mishpochah, family.
Dr. Morgan: Right.
Sid: I mean start a Mishpochah, a family group right in your house.
Dr. Morgan: And you don’t need an institution to approve of you. You just simply need the Holy Spirit to send you, and the Holy Spirit’s anointing on you to do it. God will bring people alongside of you to help you and to guide you. God will bring people to your home, but you’ve got to start. They launched out, Jesus sent them He said “Go and I will be with you lo always until the end of the age.”
Sid: Howie what the body of Messiah that Messiah died for that is functioning right now. A pastor has been listening to us all week and he’s been saying “You know I like what I hear, but I can’t change what I have because that vision is so engrained.” What would you say to him?
Dr. Morgan: Well I’d say to him the mere fact that he is agreeing with you and I today is an indicator of the anointing of the Holy Spirit on his heart, and he prays into that anointing and allows the Holy Spirit, who called him from his mother’s womb, or her mother’s womb, to go forward and let the Holy Spirit who began the good work start the change. God will begin to change him first then he’ll be able to change his circle of influence and that will go out to the greater congregation, but the change has to take in his own heart. He has to present a living sacrifice and allow the Holy Spirit to make the paradigm shift, and that’s what this is about Sid. It’s about this paradigm shift, this revolution that is going on and the anointing that is sweeping people around the face of the earth into a new passion, and new direction. Saying “God we’re going where we’ve never gone before, we’re going to launch out. We are going to see what You will do because we want an environment for the Holy Spirit to come.” He just presents himself and says “Okay Lord let me take the risks, step out of the boat and trust you and see where you will take me.”
Sid: Howie wait, what type of reaction are you getting from people that sit under your teaching, or read your book “Leaves from the Olive Tree?”
Dr. Morgan: Most of the reaction I am getting is very positive. There are some people that don’t like it because they like their life the way it is, but most of the people I get opportunities to minister to they are saying “That oh Dr. Morgan!” they say to me “That explained what I’m going through. You put words on what I was feeling.” Some people with tears in their eyes because they thought they were being demonized; they thought they were falling away, or backsliding. I was expressing to them “No God is transiting you from an institution into a reality…”
Sid: Now my guest is someone that many of you have heard of I’ve interviewed him several times in the past, Rodney Howard-Brown. I haven’t been in touch with him as much as I would have like to over the years, but Rodney never said this to me but I have noticed that he has been the catalyst for the 4 greatest moves of God in modern times. We did a little research Rodney and we found out that the great revivals in modern days were at the Toronto Airport Church, Brownsville in Pensacola, Florida, the Smithton Revival, and then bumped to England Holy Trinity Brompton Church; we found that you are traced to all of them. That is… that’s an amazing revelation because I mean I’m not stretching anything. You definitely had a transfer of anointing for every one of these revivals.
Rodney: Well, you know I don’t think I tell me don’t blame me for everything.
Rodney: It really is all the Holy Spirit and we understand that God uses people and all we see ourselves is to light the fires of revival everywhere we go.
Sid: Well, now that I realize this and I’ve put this whole connection together it’s even more imperative that we understand how God dealt with you. Because as you say “Whatever you received anyone listening to us can receive if they get hungry enough.” Would you agree?
Rodney: Yes Sir, you know the Bible says “The eyes of the Lord run to and fro through-out the whole earth. God is looking for people that He can trace Himself strong in their behalf.” As a young boy I’d given my life to the Lord when I was 5 and I was Baptized in the Holy Spirit when I was 8 years of age. Crying out for God throughout my growing up, my teen years.
Sid: Now, let me point out that you were raised in a Pentecostal home. Out of curiosity did you see miracles as a young boy in your home; in your church?
Rodney: Yes sir, my mom and dad; my dad was an engineer, my mom ran several businesses and I saw the Spirit of God on both of them. Actually in fact every one of the 9 gifts operated through their life. Our house was a place of prayer, people would come and get set free from demonic oppression, delivered off of drugs, alcohol. They’d also come to our home for prayer meetings to get the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So I saw it all in the living room. It was pretty amazing as a kid growing up.
Sid: Well that’s a great heritage. Just out of curiosity I’ve never asked you this but did you have a season where you back-slid I mean being… unfortunately lots of people raised the way that you were raised wanted to see if the grass was a little greener somewhere else.
Rodney: No sir I did not. I’ll tell you I think my parents I think there walk with God it meant every day we prayed together and I saw the reality of Jesus in each of them. So from a young age I had a really relationship with the Lord so I did not, I did not backslide no, thank God.
Sid: Okay, in 1978 something happened that just shook you to the very core; what was that?
Rodney: My oldest brother, I have two older brothers one 12 years older, and other 14 years older than me. And my oldest brother past away suddenly of leukemia and it pretty much devastated the whole family. I mean he was in the ministry; we were in it and we had a music group together and I really looked up to him obviously as my older brother, and he died suddenly. And so I remember standing at his deathbed; I was only 17 at the time and I remember praying and I made a vow I said to the Lord, I said “The devil going to rue the day that he touched my brother.” And I didn’t even know what I was saying Sid, I said of the devil “People are going to laugh at you all over the world.” I did not know God would give us a ministry of joy.
Sid: Hmm. So Rodney would you say you’ve kind of up until that point were taking things for granted having been raised where the supernatural is so natural in your home and in your church? In other words, tell me what was the difference in your hunger as a result of what happened to your brother?
Rodney: Well I realized that I had to have the fire in my life. You can see the fire of God it’s like when Paul wrote to Timothy he said “I see the fire in you that was in your mother and your Grandmother.” I knew that my parents had an intimate relationship with the Lord that God spoke to them and that the Lord had spoken to me several times as a teenager. I had heard His audible voice, however, I knew that if I was going to go into the ministry which God had called me to God called me into that I could not go without the fire. Like John the Baptist said “I baptize with water but there’s coming one after me that will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire.” And I knew I had the Holy Spirit but I needed that fire if I was to have any impact anywhere that I went.
Sid: So how were you praying at that time?
Rodney: Oh I was just desperate and it really took place over a period of August of ’78 to July of ’79. Then in July of ’79 for whatever reason I just was one night I said “Lord, tonight’s the night either you come down and touch me or I’m coming up there to touch you.” And I was so desperate I began to cry out “God I want your fire” and the fire of God fell on me. (Laughing)
Sid: But, but, but even before that you said “Lord, tonight is my night.” You were just making a bold statement or did you feel God showed that to you.
Rodney: No, no, no it was just like in a place of desperation of crying out to God.
Sid: Okay, tell me about what happened…
Rodney: As I was crying out for the fire and just shouting at the top of my voice actually I felt nothing at the time for about twenty minutes. And suddenly it was like somebody poured gasoline over me and set me ablaze. Now when I say this; when I talk about the fire of God it was not painful but it was like pins and needles but it was a good kind. It was like electricity running through my body from the top of my head to the souls of my feet. And out of my innermost being this river of Living Water began to flow I was started to weep; and I was laughing and I was speaking in other tongues and this just went on and on it flowed like a river. And so that was when the Lord touched me and it lasted like that for really over 3 days; into the 4th day is when I cried and I said “Lord, I can’t bear this and can you lift it.” And I realized why we’re going to have to have a glorified body when we get to heaven because we wouldn’t be able to stand in the presence of God. Our physical bodies could not take too much of the presence of God.
Sid: Now just out of curiosity you said it lasted several days, did you just stay in your prayer place, or did you go to work and then come back and pray, what was going on?
Rodney: No, no I was actually with a group of young people and they were mainly all Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Dutch Reformed, I was the only Pentecostal among them and so kind of fighting everybody in the room when I started crying out. But when the fire of God fell on me it actually fell on them. And there was a group of girls from the Grahamstown High School for girls and the fire of God hit them. They went back and the revival broke out; they went for 3 years in Grahamstown and I only found out some of the stuff later, years later. We know of a pastor’s wife who was actually there the night that I got touched by the fire and she told the story of how the revival went back to this high school and shook this whole high school.
Sid: Now out of curiosity your parents when you went to them and told them what happened how did they react?
Rodney: Oh no, they understood, they totally understood because I’d seen my mother, I remember when I was 7 years old and I walked in the room and my mom was sitting on the sofa and she was filled with great joy. And she was just laughing for 3 ½ hours; and I remember as a 7 year old boy I said to my dad, “What’s happening to Mom?” And he said “Jesus is touching mom.” So to me, I totally understood the presence of God. And the Bible says “In His presence is fullness of joy, at His right hand are pleasures forevermore.” The Bible says “Out of your innermost being will flow rivers of Living Water.” And this is the joy that Jesus gives that the world cannot give.
Sid: Now, the fire went into you; you’re experiencing God. When did it actually start being released on other people, of course you said “Other people,” there was a group there that it was released on, but at a meeting when did it start being release?
Rodney: Well, just in reference to when it fell on me, I didn’t know what to do so I started just laying hands on everybody around me and they got hit by it.
Rodney: The next year 1980 when I went into the ministry I was traveling with a group called “Youth for Christ.” And we had a music group and I was lead singer, guitarist and we had a whole band. And we were in this Methodist Church and of course they told me they said “Look, you can’t talk about the Holy Spirit.” And I said “Okay, what do you want me to talk about?” They said “Well, talk about Jesus.” And I said “That’s fine by me I know Him so I can talk about Him.”
Rodney: I think they forgot that Jesus said “If I be lifted up I’ll draw all men unto Me.” And so when you talk about Jesus Holy Spirit comes along and say’s “Did you call?” But so I was backroom of the Methodist Church and one of the young ladies on our team that was in terrible pain came into the door right before the service. And said “Look, I’m in terrible pain would you pray for me?” I got up as I went towards her to lift up my hand and lay it on her head the power of God came right through her head and I never even touched her and she just crumbled on the floor. And I felt for the first time the tangible presence of God coming through my hands.
Sid: It was like that electricity that hit you originally it was now moving through you to other people.
Rodney: Correct, but I felt it go from me.
Rodney: And then I found a reference in the scripture from Mark chapter 5 the story of the woman with issue of blood.
Sid: Rodney I think you’ve going to have to hold that thought we’re out of time right now. But Rodney’s call, his purpose is to make you so hungry for God. To provoke you to such jealousy and then to pray a prayer of impartation.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to have a fear of the Lord because if there’s a missing ingredient in Christian’s today it’s the fear of the Lord. There’s a misunderstanding of that term. There’s a misunderstanding of what happens if you do have it; there’s a misunderstanding if what happens if you don’t have it. I have a Pastor on the telephone right now Pastor Michael Cameneti. He’s Pastor of Canton Christian Fellowship in Canton, Ohio. He’s just written a book called “The Missing Ingredient to Success.” Michael what will happen if we do not have the fear of the Lord?
Michael: Sid if we don’t have the fear of the Lord; it’s very clear the Bible tells us there’s some things that will happen. First of all we’ll have a problem with sin; there is no doubt about it. We get desensitized to sin; and there are other things that happen like dishonesty. We read in Genesis about Abraham how he was able to be dishonest about his wife saying that it was his sister. Well, Abraham didn’t know God like we know God. He didn’t live in Him; wasn’t having the born again experience. But we understand that if even as a Christian we can begin to not fear God and then all of a sudden we fear man more than we do God. And that’s a dangerous thing; so we can get desensitized and have a life of sin that can lead us into some dangerous things. Or we can have unanswered prayer. And the Bible says in Proverbs 23:17 “Be thou in the fear of the Lord all day long.” And we gave a definition on one of the days on this about the fear of the Lord and I believe it’s a simple definition it simply means this. “It’s not a mere fear of His power; it’s not a mere fear of his righteous retribution, but it’s a wholesome dread of displeasing Him.” And all of us want to please God; I mean anyone who even if their fires not there; if they don’t even love God like they did when they were first born again. They can honestly say today “But I want to please God.” In order to please God we have to fear Him and in order to fear Him we’ll have to do something. And that’s simply this; we have to make an adjustment in our thought life. We have to make an adjustment on what we hear and what kind of things that we see and what we’re allowing in; we monitor if you would. The fear of the Lord Sid and I have a chapter on this and it becomes a limiter. We know that cars have limiters on them and they might not go to the full speed because they have a limiter. Or a laser; if someone has laser surgery for their eyes. There’s a limiter on that laser it could blast right through them; but there’s a limiter from doing what it could really do. Well, when we fear God there’s a limiter on life. And the limiter is I would not do the things that I would when I was in the world now because I’m fearing God. And it’s not because I’m afraid of Him; it’s not I’m afraid that He’s going to do something evil to me. But I fear Him and I want to please Him. But Sid better than that there are some things in the book that I’ve written that I think are very important for people. And that is simply this is there’s rewards to fearing the Lord. I sort of look at it this way and I even mention it in the book. God sort of does it as we do as parents you know. My kids are older and when they were younger I would tell my children when they were younger “If you do this there’s going to be a reward to it; but if you do this there’s also a discipline to it.” Well God did the same thing; what He put in His word Sid is simply this; if we’ll fear God there’s actually rewards to fearing Him. And I think that if people hear these rewards that they’ll say “Okay I want to fear God.” And the book explains exactly how to do that.
Sid: And I hear what you’re saying but for me as an individual I like the definition of I love God so much I don’t want to displease Him. It’s worth swallowing my pride if I’ve said something that’s an exaggeration to say you know “I’m sorry, that’s not what I really meant.” Because I don’t want to displease Him but then there are others you say who the reward is what attracts them.
Michael: Right, everyone lives on the different you know some people what’s going to attract some people is “I want to hear the rewards because they’re reward oriented because of at their job you know.” They feel like they get rewarded for being a good worker. Well, God rewards people and so let me just tell you some of them real quickly. Proverbs 10:27 says “The fear of the Lord prolongs days.” That means you live longer. And it actually says “The years of the wicked shall be shortened.” So I believe if we fear God we can live a long life on this earth. There’s nowhere in the Bible where God say “He wants us to die prematurely; He desires us to live long.”
Sid: But you know a lot of people live long but it’s not quality.
Michael: Definitely, and that’s the next one Sid. Number 2 is living a satisfied life. Proverbs go on and talks about if we fear God we’ll be satisfied in life. We’ll have prolonged days and satisfied. Well, satisfied means that you’re happy, you’re just not living on earth and miserable; but I’m satisfied. And when we come to the end of our days we’re satisfied. Just like people in the Bible were and so the fear of the Lord attends to life and will abide satisfied. That’s Proverbs 19:23. But Sid here’s one that I think everyone would be interested in this. We live in a society today where sickness is prevalent in the earth. Where people even Christian’s are dealing with sickness on and off in their lives. Malachi chapter 4 verse 2 says “But unto you that fear My Name shall the Son of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings.” I believe that it’s God’s will to heal people; I believe God wants people healed. But this is telling us that this is one of the rewards for fearing God. One of the rewards for fearing God that He will actually heal us. The Son of Righteousness is referring to Jesus and this is a promise in the Bible that if we will fear God. You know someone might be listening today Sid and say “Well, that’s Old Testament Old Covenant.” Well, the Bible says in 2nd Corinthians chapter 1:19 & 20 there it says “Every promise of God is yes and amen in Him.”
Sid: Not only that the only Bible the first church had was the Old Testament. A lot of people don’t realize that.
Michael: Very true because they did not have what we have today where they put the books together. And so…
Sid: Speaking of sickness; about 4 years ago you went for about months where you had difficulty walking. Would you briefly tell me about that?
Michael: Sure in our congregation I told this testimony to them many times. Being the Pastor of the church and I teach on healing; I teach on faith; I teach the Word at our church. And I got attacked with something; I can’t tell you exactly what it was because I don’t know that any doctor every found out. They thought I had MS and they were doing every test they could to examine me for MS. That one doctor literally said with my wife there in the room “That they believe I have MS and they were doing all the test for that.” And what happened Sid is something attacked me to the point that I couldn’t walk. There were times in fact I went to a baseball game with friends from the church one time and they were walking across the parking lot into the ballgame and I fell right on the ground. I told my wife “Go ahead with them and when this stops I’ll get up and I’ll meet you.” I had no idea what it was I’m an athletic person I like to work out; like to run. So this was you know a pretty devastating thing to me. And what ended up happening to make a long story short is I sought God. I said “Lord I know that You’re the healer and obviously on my end there’s something wrong on the reception end here.” See that’s judging yourself and that ties all back into what we’ve been talking about all week. I told the Lord “I know that I’m not perfect if I’ve done something to displease you; if I’ve done something to open a door up to the devil I want to know I want to get this right.” Well, nothing came up there; I didn’t have anything that the Lord said but I made sure that I judged myself and told God “If I’ve done anything forgive me.” And I started to seek the Lord and we had a guest minister in on a Sunday morning and he said “I don’t know why I’m preaching this today, this church hears all the time about healing and faith.” He said “If you believe that you receive your healing according to Mark 11:24 then you have it now so act like you’re healed.” And it just hit me that I’d not been doing that; everyday I’d start over again because my legs would go out you know all of a sudden I’d lose any ability to walk. And I thought I did something wrong. So I’d start all over again. “Father, I believe I receive my healing.” And I would just go through this ritual if you would. So one day I had to take my son somewhere I was in a mall parking lot. I spent some time with the Lord in prayer; worship God and I got out of that car and I told the Lord “I’m running and I believe I receive my healing.” I started running and I fell right on my face exactly what happened all the other times happened. I got up and said “Father I don’t believe this attack is from you and I believe I’m healed” and I took off running. And ever since that point Sid 3 months had gone by 4 months or something like that. After that one time of running right there I never have experienced the problem again. The doctors said “It was miraculous; I should have had some kind of bad thing happen to me in their view point should not have been able to walk.” But the Lord completely healed me and it was marvelous and I’m thankful for it.
Sid: Michael, you’ve been teaching on this subject on the fear of the Lord for a long time and you’ve just written your book on “The Missing Ingredient to Success.” Which is the fear of the Lord; what impact does it have on people when it dawns on them what their problem has been?
Michael: Well, when we taught this at our church; when we taught this at the Sunday morning services at our church I had person after person come through the greeting line when we were greeting them. Telling them I never even; they would tell me this “I never even knew Number 1 that this is in the Bible.” And Number 2, some that knew it was in the Bibles “I was not applying it to my life; I just did not get it I did not see it.” When they began to apply it people were healed, other people had deliverance’s come; other people had their marriages healed Sid. With all the marriage things that are going on in the world.
Sid: What about children?
Michael: Children would turn around; because what happens with children you know as well as I do that if they don’t have that solid family structure the marriage is not strong; there’s not a dad there. When lives begin to get turned around then the children automatically will be looking at the parents. We’ve had parents say “My children beg to come to church now; they can’t wait.”
Sid: Michael we’re out of time right now thank you so much for being my guest.